MetroFocus: March 20, 2023

> TONIGHT, NEW YORK CITY BRACES FOR UNREST AFTER FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP CALLS ON HIS SUPPORTERS TO TAKE TO THE STREETS IN PROTEST.

TRUMP SAYS HIS ARREST IN NEW YORK IS IMMINENT AND LAW ENFORCEMENT IS ON HIGH ALERT.

WILL THE FORMER PRESIDENT INDEED BE INDICTED THIS WEEK, AND IF SO, IS THE CITY READY?

'METROFOCUS' STARTS RIGHT NOW.

♪♪

> THIS IS 'METROFOCUS,' WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

> 'METROFOCUS' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

ESTATE OF ROLAND CARLIN.

> GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO I'M JENNA FLANAGAN.

TONIGHT THE STORY THAT EVERYONE IS TALKING ABOUT -- FORMER PRESIDENT AND CANDIDATE FOR THE 2024 REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION, DONALD TRUMP, COULD BE INDICTED AND ARRESTED IN MANHATTAN AS EARLY AS THIS WEEK.

LOCAL, STATE, AND FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT ARE PREPARING FOR THE UNPRECEDENTED, THE CRIMINAL INDICTMENT OF A FORMER PRESIDENT AND THE POSSIBLE UNREST THAT COULD FOLLOW.

THIS ALL STEMS FROM THE MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S INVESTIGATION INTO HUSH-MONEY PAYMENTS TRUMP ALLEGEDLY MADE TO ADULT FILM STAR STORMY DANIELS AHEAD OF THE 2016 ELECTION.

OVER THE WEEKEND TRUMP PREDICTED ON HIS SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM THAT HE WILL BE ARRESTED ON TUESDAY AND CALLED ON HIS SUPPORTERS TO PROTEST AND, QUOTE, TAKE OUR NATION BACK.

TRUMP'S POSTS WERE REMINISCENT OF HIS TWEETS PRIOR TO THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION, RAISING FEARS THAT THE UNREST FROM THAT DAY COULD BE REPEATED THIS TIME IN NEW YORK CITY.

RIGHT NOW SECURITY AROUND THE CITY IS BEING INCREASED, AND SO JOINING ME TONIGHT TO COVER ALL OF IT ARE, FIRST WE'D LIKE TO WELCOME SAM NUNBERG.

SAM IS AN ATTORNEY AND FORMER INSIDER IN THE TRUMP WORLD SERVING AS CAMPAIGN ADVISER IN 2016.

SAM, WELCOME TO 'METROFOCUS.'

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

ABSOLUTELY.

I'D ALSO LIKE TO WELCOME JENNIFER RODGERS, A FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND ADJUNCT PROFESSOR OF CLINICAL LAW AT NYU SCHOOL OF LAW.

IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU BACK ON THE SHOW.

GREAT TO BE HERE, JENNA.

OF COURSE.

AND ROUNDING OUT OUR ROUND TABLE IS ELLIS HENICAN.

ELLIS, OF COURSE, IS A PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING JOURNALIST AND POLITICAL ANALYST.

ELLIS, IT'S ALWAYS GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON.

ALWAYS FUN, JENNA.

THANK YOU.

ABSOLUTELY.

SO JENNIFER, I WANT TO GO RIGHT INTO AS I WAS SORT OF MENTIONING IN THE INTRO WHAT SPECIFICALLY ARE THESE CHARGES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, AND FROM WHICH JURISDICTION ARE THEY BEING BROUGHT?

WELL, THERE ARE TWO CASES BEING INVESTIGATED OUT OF THE MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE.

THAT'S WHERE EVERYONE THINKS CHARGES MAY BE BROUGHT AS EARLY AS THIS WEEK.

THE CASE THAT FOLKS ARE SAYING IS GOING TO BE BROUGHT THIS WEEK IS THE HUSH-MONEY PAYMENTS CASE, THE ALLEGATION THAT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP PAID HUSH MONEY TO ADULT FILM STAR STORMY DANIELS AND THEN HID THAT PAYMENT BY HAVING MICHAEL COHEN ACTUALLY MAKE IT, AND THEN PUTTING IT ON THE BOOKS OF THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION AS A LEGAL EXPENSE WHEN IT WAS NOT.

SO THE CHARGE ACTUALLY WOULD BE FALSIFICATION OF BUSINESS RECORDS WHICH IN NEW YORK STATE IS A MISDEMEANOR UNLESS IT BECOMES A FELONY IF THAT CRIME, THE FALSIFICATION, IS DONE TO FACILITATE OR COVER UP A SECOND CRIME.

AND THE SECOND CRIME HERE COULD BE A CAMPAIGN FINANCE VIOLATION, FOR EXAMPLE.

SO THAT'S THE CASE THAT EVERYONE IS EXPECTING MIGHT BE INDICTED THIS WEEK.

THE MANHATTAN D.A. HAS A SECOND CASE INTO THE INFLATION AND DEFLATION OF ASSETS THAT THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION USED THEN TO OBTAIN LOANS AND TO LOWER THEIR TAX RATE.

SO THAT'S A SEPARATE CASE THAT WE THINK IS NOT GOING TO BE BROUGHT THIS WEEK, BUT THAT INVESTIGATION IS SUPPOSEDLY STILL ONGOING.

SAM, GIVEN YOUR EXPERIENCE HAVING BEEN A TRUMP INSIDER, ESPECIALLY AT THIS TIME WHEN THIS WOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN REAL TIME, WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THESE CHARGES, THIS POSSIBLE MISDEMEANOR AS JENNIFER JUST SAID LEADING TO THIS UNPRECEDENTED POSSIBLE ARREST AND INDICTMENT OF A FORMER PRESIDENT?

WELL, I THINK FROM A POLITICAL POINT OF VIEW IT'S GOING TO BE A COUP FOR DONALD TRUMP WITHIN THE GOP PRIMARY.

AND I CAN TELL YOU THIS AS A RON DeSANTIS SUPPORTER, THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON' HE DECLARED SO EARLY, A WEEK AFTER THE MIDTERMS WHERE HE HAD AN EFFECT IN MAKING SURE THE REPUBLICANS UNDERPERFORMED.

THIS IS GOING TO MAKE HIM -- MAKE IT VERY HARD TO CRITICIZE HIS RECORD WHICH WOULD BE CENTERED AROUND CRITICISM OF HIS HANDLING OF COVID, OF OPERATION WARP SPEED, AND NOW YOU CAN EVEN SEE PRESSURE ON THE CANDIDATES THAT ARE RUNNING AGAINST HIM TO COME OUT IN SUPPORT OF HIM.

THE CHARGE ITSELF I'M NOT SO SURE IT AFFECTS -- I'M NOT SURE IT'S GOING TO AFFECT HIS VIABILITY EVEN FOR THE GENERAL ELECTION WHERE HE'D BECOME THE NOMINEE.

OF COURSE, HE MAY HAVE TO BE DOING ALL OF THAT -- I WAS THINKING POSSIBLY DEBATES, IF HE WERE TO BE FOUND GUILTY BEFORE THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES, HE COULD BE DOING THOSE VIA ZOOM FROM RIKERS.

THE CASE ITSELF IS I THINK -- IT'S A NOVEL CASE TO SAY THE LEAST.

AND THE FDNY INVESTIGATED THIS, I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT.

MY GRAND JURY TESTIMONY WAS CENTERED AROUND THIS IN THE MUELLER INVESTIGATION.

THEY HAVE PASSED ON THE UNDERLYING FELONY, AND THE ONLY TIME A FELONY LIKE THAT HAS BEEN TRIED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT WAS AGAINST JOHN EDWARDS WHERE ON THAT SPECIFIC CHARGE HE WAS FOUND NOT GUILTY.

I WOULD SAY THAT FROM SAYING THAT THIS WAS A POLITICAL CONTRIBUTIONS, LET'S BE CAREFUL, IF DONALD TRUMP AND HIS DEFENSE CAN SHOW THAT THERE IS ANOTHER REASON THAT THIS PAYMENT WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE, THEN THAT WOULD BE REASON FOR THE JURY TO FIND THAT HE'S NOT GUILTY OF THAT FELONY, AND IF THERE WAS A HISTORY I'M ASSUMING -- I NEVER WOULD DIRECTLY PARTICIPATE IN ANYTHING LIKE THIS -- BUT THERE WAS A HISTORY WITH WOMEN, AND I DO KNOW THAT DONALD WAS VERY SENSITIVE ABOUT MELANIA AND HIS MARRIAGE.

HE WOULD HAVE A COUPLE ARGUMENTS TO BE POSSIBLY FOUND NOT GUILTY ON THE FELONY IN TERMS OF THE UNDERLYING MISDEMEANOR.

I WOULD ALSO SAY THERE'S AN IMPORTANT -- I'LL END HERE -- THAT MICHAEL COHEN WAS PAID AROUND $360,000.

THE YEAR AFTER HE LEFT TRUMP ORG.

MICHAEL WAS PAID AT TRUMP ORG ANYWHERE FROM $500,000 A YEAR TO $250,000 A YEAR BASE SALARY, AND THAT $360,000 WOULD NOT BE OUT OF LEAGUE WITH THAT, AND IT COULD ALSO BE ARGUED BY TRUMP ORG THAT, LOOK, WE WERE PAYING HIM AFTER HE LEFT TO KEEP CONSULTING ON OPEN LEGAL MATTERS AND SOME KIND OF SORT OF A SEVERANCE PAYMENT.

BUT -- BUT YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A -- IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A VERY -- I THINK IT WOULD BE A HOSTILE SITUATION, SORRY, FOR DONALD IN A NEW YORK CITY COURTROOM.

ELLIS, GIVE US YOUR TAKE ON ALL OF THE POLITICAL -- SAM DID LAY OUT A LOT OF THINGS LIKE WE DO KNOW THAT FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP DID ANNOUNCE HE'S RUNNING AGAIN FOR THE NOMINATION.

BUT WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON HOW THIS PLAYS OUT ESPECIALLY POLITICALLY, NOT JUST LEGALLY BUT ALSO POLITICALLY?

JENNA, IT'S A CRUCIAL DISTINCTION, AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP THEM BOTH IN MIND AT THE SAME TIME.

AND THEY ARE IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.

I WOULD DISAGREE WITH SAM A LITTLE ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT THIS PROSECUTION IS GOING TO BE.

'S NOT THAT COMPLICATED.

IT'S A -- LEGALLY CREATIVE APPROACH, AND INDEED WHEN YOU COMPARE IT TO THE OTHER CASES THAT JENNIFER WAS ALLUDING TO A IN A MOMENT AGO, IT PROBABLY WILL END UP BEING THE LEAST SERIOUS OF THE CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS THAT DONALD TRUMP IS UNDER RIGHT NOW.

HOW IT BOUNCES IN THE ELECTORATE IS A FASCINATING AND COMPLICATED QUESTION.

MY ASSUMPTION IS THAT THERE ARE A VERY FEW PEOPLE IN AMERICA WHO ARE UNDECIDED ON DONALD TRUMP.

AND I THINK THAT ALMOST ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS AT THIS POINT IS NOT LIKELY TO SWAY HUGE NUMBERS OF MINDS.

BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT IT REVS UP FOLKS IN THE BASE GIVES A BOOST TO THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARIES AND MAY HURT HIM IN NOVEMBER IF HE BECOMES THE NOMINEE AND IS RUNNING AGAINST JOE BIDEN OR SOME OTHER DEMOCRAT.

SO JENNIFER, I WANT TO BRING YOU BACK IN BECAUSE YOU ARE A LEGAL EXPERT, AND NOT EVERYONE IN AMERICA IS A LAWYER.

SO WHEN SAM WAS REFERRING TO THE SD&Y PASS -- FDNY PASSING ON THIS, I ASSUME YOU'RE REFERRING TO THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK --

YES.

JENNIFER, IS THERE ANY INDICATION AS TO WHY THE U.S.

ATTORNEY PASSED ON AND ALVIN BRAGG, THE MANHATTAN D.A., CHOSE TO FOLLOW THIS CASE THROUGH?

SO WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING PUBLICLY, AND THE TRUTH IS THERE COULD BE A VARIETY OF REASONS THAT THEY CHOSE NOT TO PURSUE IT.

SDNY COULD NOT PURSUE IT AT THE TIME THAT THEY PROSECUTED MICHAEL COHEN FOR THIS BECAUSE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE'S LONG-STANDING RULE, IT'S NOT A LAW, BUT IT IS THEIR POLICY COMING OUT OF THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL THAT A SITTING PRESIDENT CANNOT BE INDICTED.

SO THEY COULDN'T DO ANYTHING WITH THIS AT THE TIME.

SO THAT LEAVES THEN WHEN THE ADMINISTRATION CHANGES, DONALD TRUMP IS NOW OUT OF OFFICE, COULD THEY TECHNICALLY HAVE BROUGHT THE CASE THEN.

THE ANSWER IS YES, BUT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT DOJ AS A WHOLE, MERRICK GARLAND, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, WANTED SDNY TO DO WITH THIS CASE.

IT MAY BE THAT THEY PASSED ON IT NOT BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T THINK THEY HAD THE EVIDENCE BUT BECAUSE IT WAS DECIDED THAT IN THE WAKE OF JANUARY 6th AND THE INVESTIGATIONS THAT WERE RAMPING UP WITH RESPECT TO THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S ACTIONS IN TRYING TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION AND CAUSING THE INSURRECTION, THAT THERE WERE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS FOR DOJ TO BE DOING.

SO I'M NOT AT ALL CONVINCED THAT SDNY THOUGHT THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE THIS CASE ON THE FACTS AND THE LAW.

IN FACT, HAVING SEEN WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE MICHAEL COHEN CASE, IT'S VERY CLEAR TO ME THAT THEY DID.

BUT MAYBE THEY DECIDED NOT TO FOR REASONS HAVING TO DO WITH OTHER INVESTIGATIONS.

AND ALSO THE ISSUE WITH MICHAEL COHEN.

YOU KNOW, MICHAEL COHEN WAS SPEAKING TO SDNY.

OBVIOUSLY HE WAS PROSECUTED, BUT THERE WAS TALK OF HIM BECOMING A COOPERATING WITNESS IN THE FEDERAL SYSTEM, IN MY OLD OFFICE, SDNY.

ANYONE WHO'S GOING TO BE A COOPERATE HAS TO PLEAD GUILTY TO ALL OF THEIR CRIMINAL CONDUCT AND ADMIT EVERYTHING THEY'VE DONE.

AND NOT ONLY WHAT THEY'VE DONE, THEY HAVE TO TALK ABOUT CRIMES THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE COMMITTED THAT THEY KNOW ABOUT.

AND WHAT WAS REPORTED AT LEAST PUBLICLY AT THE TIME WAS THAT MICHAEL COHEN WAS NOT WILLING TO DO THAT.

SO SDNY WAS NOT WILLING TO SIGN HIM UP TO A COOPERATION AGREEMENT.

SO THAT MAY HAVE BEEN WHY THAT FELL APART.

IN OTHER WORDS, THAT'S A LONG WAY OF SAYING IT'S NOT REALLY THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE CASE, IT'S THEY DECIDED NOT TO BRING IT FOR OTHER REASONS.

BUT THINK I DON'T THAT THAT SUGGESTS THAT THERE'S NOT A STRONG CASE TO BE BROUGHT HERE.

I'M INCLINED TO AGREE MORE WITH ELLIS, THAT THE FACTS HERE ARE NOT COMPLICATED.

THEY HAVE THE EVIDENCE.

THERE'S SOME CREATIVITY IN THE LEGAL ISSUES HERE, BUT LISTEN, ALVIN BRAGG'S A PRO, AND IF THEY'RE BRINGING IT, THEY CERTAINLY HAVE THOUGHT THROUGH ALL OF THESE ISSUES.

AND YOU KNOW, WE'LL HAVE TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

BUILDING OFF WHAT YOU WERE SAYING FOR A SECOND, HOW WOULD THIS PLAY OUT -- LIKE IS THIS SOMETHING WHERE WE COULD SEE AFTER A POTENTIAL ARREST, CHARGES, ET CETERA, WOULD THIS BE A TRIAL CASE IN THE WAY THAT MOST AMERICANS ARE FAMILIAR WITH TV TRIAL CASES?

OR HOW DOES THIS PLAY OUT, AND COULD WE SEE WHAT SAM WAS SUGGESTING, PERHAPS SHOULD DONALD TRUMP GET THE NOMINATION, PERHAPS DEBATES TAKING PLACE OVER ZOOM FROM SOMEONE WHO IS IN CUSTODY?

WELL, SO HE WILL BE -- IF HE'S INDICTED, HE WILL BE ARRESTED AND PROCESSED.

THEN THE JUDGE CERTAINLY WILL RELEASE HIM.

HE WILL NOT BE DETAINED PENDING TRIAL.

BUT YES, THIS IS A REGULAR CRIMINAL CASE.

IT WOULD BE SET FOR TRIAL.

THEY WOULD HEAD IN THAT DIRECTION.

THERE WILL BE ALL SORTS OF PRETRIAL MOTIONS AND THINGS.

ASSUMING THAT WE GET TO TRIAL, HE WILL BE TRIED IN FRONT OF 12 JURORS OF HIS PEERS, LIKE ANY OTHER AMERICAN WOULD.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S A LIKELIHOOD THAT WE GET TO AND THROUGH TRIAL BY THE TIME OF THE ELECTION.

I JUST THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE LOTS OF LITIGATION AND LOTS OF APPEALS TO TRY TO STRING THIS OUT.

SURE.

IF HE WERE CONVICTED AND SENTENCED TO PRINT TIME HE STILL PROBABLY COULD REMAIN FREE PENDING APPEAL.

SO I DON'T THINK THERE'S MUCH OF A LIKELIHOOD THAT HE WOULD BE IMPRISONED BEFORE -- CERTAINLY NOT THE CAMPAIGN SEASON WITH DEBATES AND SO ON.

BUT THERE REALLY IS A BIG QUESTION OF THE TIMING OF WHEN THINGS CONVERGE.

WHEN WE GET TO TRIAL AND A POSSIBLE CONVICTION VERSUS THE ELECTION BECAUSE IF HE IS IMPRISONED BEFORE THE ELECTION, YOU KNOW, WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE ELECTION.

BUT THERE'S ALL SORTS OF THINGS THAT COULD HAPPEN INCLUDING THE OLC OPINION, THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL OPINION THAT I MENTIONED, THAT SAYS THAT A SITTING PRESIDENT CANNOT BE INDICTED.

IT ALSO SAYS THAT A SITTING PRESIDENT CANNOT BE PROSECUTED OR TRIED.

SO THERE'S AN ISSUE WITH THE TIMING THAT IF HE HAPPENS TO GET TO AND WIN THE ELECTION AND BE SEATED ON JANUARY 20th, INAUGURATION DAY, BEFORE HE HAS BEEN TRIED, IT'S ON THAT BASIS.

THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF THINGS HERE THAT MAKE IT COMPLICATED AND UNPRECEDENTED.

AND WE'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO SEE HOW IT PLAYS OUT WITH THE TIMING OF THE CASE, VIS-A-VIS THE ELECTION BEFORE WE KNOW HOW THOSE THINGS WILL RESOLVE.

SAM, GOING BACK TO WHAT YOU WERE SAYING ABOUT HOW THIS WOULD MOST LIKELY ENERGIZE THE BASE, I WOULD HAVE A HARD TIME IMAGINING HOW THE DISTRACTION OF A TRIAL DOESN'T BECOME SOMETHING THAT OPPONENTS WHO ARE LOOKING, FOR EXAMPLE, AT DeSANTIS WHO HAS NOT DECLARED YET, BUT MAYBE LOOKING TO SEEK THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION DOESN'T USE THIS TO THEIR ADVANTAGE.

WELL, THEY CERTAINLY SHOULD.

RON DeSANTIS HAS BEEN CRITICIZED BY TRUMP SUPPORTERS FOR NOT COMING OUT AND CONDEMNING THE POSSIBLE INDICTMENT.

HE'S BEEN -- THEY'VE EVEN BEEN SAYING, SOME TRUMP SUPPORTERS, THAT THEY SHOULD STOP TRUMP -- THIS AS GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA HE MAY HAVE THE AUTHORITY, WHICH HE DOESN'T, TO STOP TRUMP FROM BEING MOVED TO FACE THE INDICTMENT FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA.

IN OTHER WORDS, HE WOULDN'T HAVE TO HONOR THE NEW YORK CITY INDICTMENT.

SO IF I WERE RON DeSANTIS -- YOU'VE SEEN OTHER CANDIDATE ALREADY SUCH AS NIKKI HALEY, SHWARMY CONDEMN THIS PROSECUTION.

THEY'RE TRYING TO TRIANGULATE AND GET DeSANTIS INTO IT AND TO SAY WE ARE THE ONLY -- IF WE DON'T COME OUT AND CONDEMN IT, IT'S GOING TO BE LEGITIMIZED.

I SUSPECT DeSANTIS WILL STAY QUIET ABOUT THIS.

A LOT OF REPUBLICANS HAVE TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT DONALD'S ISSUES ARE ALL OUR ISSUES.

THIS IS THE NOT THE SAME AS WHEN HE WAS IMPEACHED AS A SITTING PRESIDENT.

THIS DOES NOT AFFECT US AS VOTERS, REPUBLICAN VOTERS, ABOUT HIS BEING EFFECTIVE IN OFFICE.

AND THIS IS ALSO NOT SOMETHING CONNECTED, SAY, TO POST ELECTION.

SO I THINK THAT IT'S GOING TO BE A LITTLE COMPLICATED.

BUT SOMEBODY -- DeSANTIS DOES HAVE A MAJOR CHOICE HERE TO MAKE.

IF I WERE HIM AND SPOKE TO SOME OF THESE PEOPLE, IT REALLY IS ABOUT TIME THAT SOMEBODY IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES, AS WHETHER OR NOT I VIEW HOW I VIEW THE MERITS OF THIS CASE, WE HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT WINNING THE ELECTION AND WHETHER WE WANT TO NOMINATE SOMEONE WHO'S GOING TO BE UNDER INDICTMENT.

SO THEN ELLIS, GIVEN ALL OF THIS, BECAUSE I'D BE REMISS IF I DIDN'T MENTION LIKE I DID IN THE INTRO THAT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP DID TWEET ON HIS TRUTH SOCIAL, I BELIEVE IS THE NAME OF IT, SOCIAL NETWORK, THAT HE WANTED TO SEE PEOPLE RESPOND.

HE WANTED PROTESTS WHICH DID, OF COURSE, ECHO WHAT HE WAS TWEETING BEFORE JANUARY 6th.

FIRST OF ALL, BASED ON WHAT WE'VE SEEN OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ABILITY TO PULL IN PEOPLE FOR HIS CAMPAIGN STOPS, HIS RALLIES, THEY DON'T SEEM TO BE AS BIG AND AS ENERGIZED AS THEY WERE.

SO CAN WE EXPECT HIM TO HAVE THE SAME KIND OF PULL OR CONTROL OVER THE REPUBLICAN BASE AS WE SAW -- AT LEAST AMONGST HIS CORE SUPPORTERS WHO SHOWED UP FOR JANUARY 6th, CAN WE SEE THAT AND EXPECT THAT TODAY?

NO, JENNA, UNDERESTIMATE TRUMP'S GRIP ON HIS MOST FERVENT SUPPORTERS.

YOU'RE RIGHT, PROTEST, PROTEST, PROTEST, HE SAID IT THREE TIMES IN CAPITAL LETTERS.

IT SEEMS THAT HE REALLY MEANS IT.

BUT IT'S BEEN DIDDING TO WATCH THE -- INTERESTING TO WATCH THE RESPONSE.

A NUMBER OF HIGH-PROFILE REPUBLICAN OFFICIALS INCLUDING SPEAKER McCARTHY, INCLUDING A NUMBER OF THE ACTIVISTS WHO HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE J6 ASSAULT ON THE CAPITOL DON'T SEEM TO BE RUSHING FORWARD WITH PLANS TO PROTEST.

I'LL TELL YOU THIS MUCH -- OFFICIALS IN NEW YORK, AS THIS POTENTIAL INDICTMENT GETS CLOSER, ARE CERTAINLY PREPARING FOR THAT POSSIBILITY.

THE NYPD, THE SECRET SERVICE, THE COURT OFFICERS IN THE LOWER MANHATTAN STATE COURTS ARE ALL COORDINATING RIGHT NOW TO BE SURE THAT THEY ARE READY FOR WHATEVER HAPPENS.

WELL, EVEN WITH THAT BEING THE CASE, I MEAN WE -- THE JANUARY 6th, WHAT STARTED OUT AS THE RALLY, WAS VERY CLEARLY PLANNED.

BUT FOR THIS, WE DON'T REALLY KNOW, WE KNOW TRUMP SAID HE EXPECTS TO BE ARRESTED TUESDAY.

BUT WE DON'T REALLY KNOW EXACTLY WHEN.

IT SEEMS LIKE IT WOULD BE MORE DIFFICULT TO GET PEOPLE TO IMMEDIATELY REACT, ESPECIALLY WITH A CITY LIKE NEW YORK THAT ISN'T EXACTLY EASY TO GET IN AND OUT OF VERY QUICKLY.

IT'S A FAIR POINT.

DON'T FORGET, JANUARY 6th WAS -- YOU KNOW, IT WASN'T EXACTLY THE USUAL SUSPECT REPUBLICANS WHO WERE PROMOTING THE RIOT AT THE CAPITOL.

YOU KNOW, IT WAS AN UNDERCURRENT OF FERVENT PEOPLE EGGED ON, WE NOW KNOW, BY A COUPLE OF MILITANT, VIOLENT GROUPS.

AND SO THEY'RE VERY DIFFICULT TO TRACK.

AND I THINK ANYONE WHO CAN TELL YOU RIGHT NOW, JENNA, OR PRETENDS TO KNOW THAT THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE WAKE OF AN INDICTMENT, TAKE WITH A FAIR AMOUNT OF SKEPTICISM.

WELL, I MEAN, WE'VE SEEN AT LEAST THE LEGAL FALLOUT OF JANUARY 6th.

I UNDERSTAND THAT SECURITY IS BEING RAISED IN MANHATTAN, AS I MENTIONED IN THE LEAD, JENNIFER.

BUT IS THERE -- I GUESS, IS IT CLEARER WHERE THE GUARDRAILS ARE FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

LIKE WOULD IT HAVE TO BE A PEACEFUL PROTEST?

OR IF THE SITUATION WERE TO GET I GUESS VIOLENT AGAIN, WHO EXACTLY WOULD BE THE TARGET?

LIKE ARE WE TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE MANHATTAN D.A.? WOULD THIS HAVE TO HAPPEN IN NEW YORK?

COULD IT HAPPEN IN FLORIDA?

I GUESS THOSE WOULD BE MY QUESTIONS IS DO WE KNOW EXACTLY WHO THE TARGET OF THE PROTESTS THEORETICALLY WOULD BE?

WELL, WE ONLY KNOW WHAT WE'VE SEEN PUBLICLY.

I MEAN, TRUMP HAS SAID THIS IS AN OUTRAGE.

THE MANHATTAN D.A. IS COMING AFTER ME, HE'S A RACIST.

SO I WOULD SAY LIKELY HE INTEND THE TARGET TO BE THE MANHATTAN D.A.

AND WE ALSO SAW AN INTERNAL NOTE RELEASED OR NOT RELEASED PUBLICLY, BUT THAT GOT OUT PUBLICLY THAT ALVIN BRAGG SENT TO HIS EMPLOYEES SAYING, YOU KNOW, DON'T BE INTIMIDATED, DON'T BE THREATENED.

WE ARE WORKING ON SECURITY.

WE NEED TO PROCEED WITH ANY INVESTIGATION AS WE ALWAYS WOULD.

SO HE'S ACKNOWLEDGING THIS THREAT THEY'RE UNDER AND SAYING THEY'RE GOING TO CONTINUE THEIR WORK AND NOT BE DETERRED.

BUT THAT THEY, OF COURSE, WILL TAKE SECURITY PRECAUTIONS.

IT SOUNDS LIKE DONALD TRUMP IS SUGGESTING EVERYONE COMES TO NEW YORK AND PROTESTS OUTSIDE OF THE COURTHOUSE OR OUTSIDE OF THE MANHATTAN D.A.'S OFFICE WHICH IS NEXT DOOR TO THE COURTHOUSE.

BUT WE JUST TO HOPE THE NYPD IS ON TOP OF ANY GROUPS THAT START TO GATHER, AND PRESUMABLY THEY'LL MAKE ANY ARRESTS THAT ARE WARRANTED BASED ON WHAT HAPPENS THERE ON THE GROUND.

BUT YOU KNOW, I HOPE TO SEE NONE OF THAT, RIGHT.

I HOPE THAT IF HE IS ARRESTED AND PROCESSED IT WILL BE DONE WITHOUT ANY SORT OF UNREST AT ALL.

SAM, WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THE FACT THAT AS ELLIS DID MENTION WE'VE SEEN PROMINENT REPUBLICANS SAY NO, WE DO NOT WANT MASS PROTESTS, AKA JANUARY 6th?

WHAT DOES THAT SAY AT LEAST TO YOU ABOUT TRUMP'S HOLD OR CONTROL OVER THE GOP PRIMARY BASE?

THAT'S AN EXCELLENT POINT.

YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE COVERAGE HERE IS THAT -- A LOT OF THE COVERAGE NATIONALLY HAS BEEN THAT REPUBLICANS COME OUT IN SUPPORT OF DONALD TRUMP, BUT IT WAS VERY GOOD TO SEE SPEAKER McCARTHY, FOR INSTANCE, SAY WHO -- WHETHER OR NOT YOU AGREED WITH IT, RELEASED THE JANUARY 6th TAKES TUCKER CARLSON TO SAY NO, THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANY VIOLENCE.

IN TERMS OF DONALD TRUMP CALLING FOR PROTESTS, THIS IS -- LOOK, HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT HE'S DOING.

HE KNOWS HOW TO SAY IT.

FOR INSTANCE, IF YOU HEARD HIM THROUGHOUT HIS HISTORY, IF HE EVER GIVES AN INTERVIEW SAYING SOMETHING NEGATIVE ABOUT SOMETHING HE WILL SAY MANY PEOPLE SAID.

HE KNOWS THAT LEGALLY HE HASN'T CALLED FOR AN INSURRECTION OR HASN'T CALLED FOR VIOLENCE.

LEGALLY HASN'T INCITED VIOLENCE.

I'M NOT GOING TO SAY NECESSARILY WHETHER OR NOT HE WOULD WANT VIOLENCE.

I'M JUST GOING TO HOPE THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN THESE PROTESTERS COME OUT AS IT THEIR CONSUME RIGHT TO SUPPORT THE -- CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO SUPPORT THE FORMER PRESIDENT THAT THEY RECOGNIZE THERE'S NYPD OUT THERE.

YOU KNOW, DHS.

AND THAT -- THEY'RE ONLY GOING TO BE HURTING PEOPLE THAT ARE HERE TO PROVIDE SECURITY FOR THE CITY.

ELLIS, AGAIN, UNPRECEDENTED SEEMS TO BE THE WORD OF THE DAY TODAY AND PERHAPS ALL WEEK.

IS THERE ANYTHING AT ALL TO RELATE THIS TO AN AMERICAN HISTORY, OR ARE WE LEGIT IN JUST COMPLETELY UNCHARTED WATERS?

BOY, THAT WORD IS GETTING WORN OUT.

I FEEL LIKE I'VE BEEN USING IT SINCE 2015.

I KEEP TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM IT.

BUT YES, DONALD TRUMP PROVIDES A LOST OF UNPRECEDENTED WE HAVE NEVER HAD AN EX-PRESIDENT CHARGED WITH A CRIME.

WE HAVE NEVER HAD -- THEREFORE, NEVER HAD PROTESTS AS A RESULT OR MULTIPLE OTHER CASES.

I THINK AT TIMES LIKE THIS ALL OF US DO WELL TO GO BACK TO FIRST PRINCIPLES.

AND THERE ARE SOME FIRST PRINCIPLES HERE.

ONE IS THAT ALL AMERICANS SHOULD BE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE LAW IN THE SAME WAY, ANOTHER IS THAT PEOPLE DO HAVE A RIGHT TO PROTEST.

THEY DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO BE VIOLENT, BUT THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO PROTEST AND EXPRESS THEIR VIEWS.

ANOTHER IS EVERY FOUR YEARS WE ELECT A PRESIDENT, AND AMERICANS WILL HAVE A CHOICE THIS TIME IT SEEMS.

AND ONE OF THOSE CHOICES IS GOING TO BE A RETURN TO A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

WE'LL HAVE TO SEE WHAT THE APPETITE FOR THAT IS.

BUT INDEED, YES, THERE IS TREMENDOUS CHAOS, TREMENDOUS NEW STUFF GOING ON EVERY DAY.

IF THERE'S ONE UNDERLYING PRINCIPLE, I THINK IT MAY BE THAT ONE.

LET'S REMEMBER WHAT WE ALL STAND FOR HERE.

ALL RIGHT.

WELL THEN, SINCE WE'RE COMING UP ON THE END OF OUR TIME TOGETHER, I DO WANT TO GET FINAL THOUGHTS ON, AGAIN, THIS UNPRECEDENTED SITUATION THAT MAY OR MAY NOT PLAY OUT TODAY BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW SPECIFICS.

JENNIFER, I'LL START WITH YOU.

WHAT ARE YOUR FINAL THOUGHTS?

WELL, IT'S SOMETHING THAT -- I CAN'T REMEMBER WHO, BUT SOMEONE ALLUDED TO THAT THIS IS NOT THE MOST SERIOUS OF THE CRIMINAL THREATS THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT FACES.

SO YOU KNOW, IF THESE CHARGES ARE BROUGHT, THEY WILL GO THROUGH THEIR PACES, AND WE'LL SEE IF THE MANHATTAN D.A.'S OFFICE ENDS UP CHARGING HIM WITH THE OTHER INVESTIGATION THEY'VE BEEN WORKING ON.

I DO THINK THAT FANNIE WILLIS IN GEORGIA IS LIKELY TO CHARGE HIM.

AND I HOPE THAT DOJ CHARGES HIM WITH ONE OR BOTH OF THE INVESTIGATIONS THEY'RE DOING.

SO I THINK THIS IS REALLY THE BEGINNING OF CRIMINAL ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE FORMER PRESIDENT WHO SO FAR HAS COMPLETELY SKATED WITHOUT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY CRIMINALLY FOR ANYTHING THAT HE'S DONE.

SO I THINK IT'S THE FIRST STEP.

IT WILL BE A LONG AND WINDING ROAD TO TRUE ACCOUNTABILITY.

BUT THIS REPRESENTS THE FIRST STEP.

SAM, SAME QUESTION, ABOUT 30 SECONDS.

FROM A POLITICAL POINT OF VIEW, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT DONALD TRUMP WANTED.

HE CERTAINLY DIDN'T WANT A PROSECUTION COMING DOWN FIRST BASED ON HIS POST-ELECTION CONDUCT OR JANUARY 6th.

SO HE HAS THE PERFECT FOIL HERE IN ALVIN BRAGG.

WE HAVEN'T GONE OVER HIS RECORD, BUT YOU KNOW, ALVIN BRAGG IS VERY SELECTIVE ON WHAT HE DECIDE TO PROSECUTE.

AND I WOULD SAY THAT -- I WOULD SAY THAT I THINK THIS COULD IN PUBLIC PERCEPTION FOR MANY INCLUDING INDEPENDENTS DELEGITIMIZE ANY FURTHER PROSECUTION OF DONALD TRUMP.

AND ELLIS, 30 SECONDS.

LAST WORD IS.

WHILE WE SHOULD ALL GET HOPE FROM THE FACT THAT IT DOES SEEM AS IF THE FORMER PRESIDENT MAY BE FACING SOME ENUNIACCOUNTABILITY, THE SAME -- GENUINE ACCOUNTABILITY, THE SAME AS WE HAD COMMITTED SIMILAR FACTS, IT IS TRUE THAT AMERICA REMAINS A HUGELY TRIBAL NATION.

DIFFICULT TO CHANGE APE SINGLE MIND.

DIFFICULT TO GET PEOPLE TO LOOK AT THESE THINGS THROUGH OBJECTIVE LENSES.

AND I FEAR THAT ONE OF THE RESULTS IN THE MONTHS TO COME IS THAT THAT TRIBALISM GETS EVEN MORE HARDENED.

AND I HOPE THAT'S NOT TRUE, BUT I WOULD SAY THE SIGNS ARE THERE.

ALL RIGHT.

WELL, THAT'S ALL OF OUR TIME.

THANK YOU TO ELLIS HENICAN, JENNIFER RODGERS, AND OF COURSE SAM NUNBERG.

THANK YOU ALL FOR JOINING US ON 'METROFOCUS.'

GREAT BEING WITH YOU.

THANKS, JENNA.

♪♪

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