MetroFocus: February 6, 2023

TONIGHT SHOPLIFTING SURGING IN NEW YORK CITY CAUSING RETAILERS TO LOCK UP EVERYDAY ITEMS BEHIND PLASTIC.

FOR WHAT WE BUY FROM MORNING COFFEE TO AMAZON SHOPPING CART COULD BE FUELING THIS PROBLEM.

A FORMER SHOPLIFTER BRINGS US IN TIME THE CRIME RING THAT ARE BRINGING RETAIL ADDICTIONS INTO RETAIL THIEVES.

METROFOCUS STARTS RIGHT NOW.

[MUSIC] THIS IS METROFOCUS WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

METROFOCUS IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G.

PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY á [MUSIC]

GOOD EVENING WELCOME TO METROFOCUS I AM RAFAEL PI ROMAN.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE NOTICED NEARLY EVERY ITEM AT YOUR LOCAL PHARMACY SEEMS TO BE LOCKED BEHIND PLASTIC CASES THESE DAYS.

AND NO DOUBT YOU KNOW THAT IS BECAUSE OF THE SHARP INCREASE IN SHOPLIFTING WE HAVE BEEN EXPERIENCING IN NEW YORK CITY OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS.

IN FACT ACCORDING TO THE NYPD THERE HAS BEEN A 66 PERCENT INCREASE IN REPORTS OF RETAIL THEFT HERE SINCE 2019.

COSTING SOURCE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS A YEAR.

BUT YOU MAY NOT BE AWARE OF, HOWEVER.

A MAJORITY OF THESE INCIDENTS HAD NOT BEEN COMMITTED BY KIDS FOR KICKS OR BY DESPERATELY POOR PARENTS TRYING TO ACQUIRE BASIC NECESSITIES FOR THEIR FAMILIES.

INSTEAD, THROUGH DETAILED REPORTING WE ARE STARTING TO UNDERSTAND SHOPLIFTING IS OFTEN PART OF A LARGER ORGANIZED CRIME RING FOR WHICH PEOPLE KNOWN AS BOOSTERS STILL ITEMS FROM STORES AND SELL THEM TO OTHERS KNOWN AS FENCES.

WHO ARE THESE BOOSTERS AND FENCERS? WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE WHO ENDS UP WITH THE LION SHARE FROM THE PURLOINED BOOTY?

YOU ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS AND MORE IS JAMES WALSH A WRITER FOR NEW YORK MAGAZINE IT WAS BEEN COVERING THIS TOPIC.

DENNIS A FORMER DRUG USER WHO ENGAGE IN BOOSTING AND IS CURRENTLY A PEER COUNSELOR IN TRAINING.

AND TALIA KEARNEY AN ATTORNEY FOR THE NEW YORK DEFENDERS ATTORNEY WHO IS REPRESENTED MR DAVIDORS.

. IT IS A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU HERE WITH US.

WHICH IS THE REASON WE ARE DOING THIS IN PIECES IS BECAUSE OF OUR LONG-STANDING PEACE IT YOU WROTE FOR NEW YORK MAGAZINE CURB ONLINE.

IT IS A WONDERFUL IT COVERS THIS TOPIC MORE THAN WE CAN DO HERE.

AND I RECOMMEND OUR VIEWERS TO TAKE A LOOK AT IT.

BUT IN ANY LET'S START BY DEFINING THE TERMS I MENTIONED IN THE DIRECTION.

WHAT EXACTLY IS A BOOSTER AND WHAT IS A FENCE?

Guest: SHARE BACK FOR HAVING ME.

A BOOSTER IS SOMEONE WE MIGHT CONSIDER A QUOTE, UNQUOTE PROFESSIONAL SHOPLIFTER.

IT IS SOMEBODY WHO IS STEALING NOT OUT OF NEED.

IT IS NOT YOUR TYPICAL SORT OF KLEPTOMANIA STEALING AS A COMPULSION.

IT IS NOT YOUR TEENAGER WHO IS STEALING A CANDY BAR.

IT IS SOMEBODY WHO IS STEALING WITH THE INTENT OF RESELLING TO GET SOME SORT OF INCOME.

AND THEY ARE OFTEN STEALING TO FENCES.

THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO GO BETWEEN THE CONSUMER, OR PERHAPS ANOTHER FENCE AND THE BOOSTER.

IT IS REALLY THE MIDDLEMAN.

Rafael: AS YOU SAID, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE THE SHOPLIFTING IS BEING DONE BY KIDS, OUT OF A LARK.

OR AT LEAST ONE ELECTED OFFICIAL SAID BY DESPERATELY POOR PARENTS WHO ARE TRYING TO GET THE BASIC NECESSITIES FOR THEIR FAMILIES.

LIKE BABY FORMULA.

BUT THAT IS NOT THE REALITY.

SO WHO DO THESE á WHO ARE THESE BOOSTERS?

THE TAXONOMY OF SHOPLIFTERS IS QUITE LARGE.

THERE IS A PRETTY WIDE RANGE.

AND MEDIA HAVE FLOODED IT.

TO BOOSTERS GET LUMPED INTO TEENAGE SHOPLIFTERS WHO GET LUMPED INTO SMASH AND GRAB.

OFTEN WE WOULD USE THE TERM SHOPLIFTING FOR PRETTY SERIOUS CRIMES OF ROBBERY AND SMASH AND GRABS.

THAT ARE VERY DIFFERENT.

OVER THE LAST TWO DECADES THIS PROBLEM OF ORGANIZED RETAIL THEFT HAS BEEN ON THE RISE.

AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHEN TALKING ABOUT BOOSTERS FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM.

WHO ARE REPORTING TO FENCES.

A FENCE IS SITTING ATOP A CREW OF BOOSTERS.

Rafael: AS YOU SAID DRUG USE, IT UNDERLIES A LOT OF THIS NEW PROBLEM.

SOME OF THE BOOSTERS, MANY OF THE BOOSTERS ARE STEALING BECAUSE OF THE DESPERATE NEED THEY HAVE BECAUSE OF THEIR ADDICTION.

DENNIS, LET ME GO TO YOU.

AS YOU SAID YOU WERE A DRUG USER.

IS THAT WHAT LED YOU TO BOOSTING? TELL US WHAT LED YOU TO THAT?

Dennis: WELL, I NEVER REALLY HAD A CRIMINAL RECORD BEFORE.

I GRADUATED FROM COLLEGE IN MY LATER 20s.

GOT IN INJURY AND WAS ADDICTED TO OPIOIDS.

AND MAINTAINED WORK AND EVERYTHING.

AS MY ADDICTION GOT WORSE I ENDED UP NOT BEING ABLE TO SUSTAIN EMPLOYMENT AND A NUMBER OF THINGS OCCURRED.

THAT LED TO ME BEING HOMELESS.

AND MY DRUG USE SPIRALED OUT OF CONTROL AND WENT ALL THE WAY TO MAINTAIN á HOW DO YOU CALL IT?

MAINTAIN MY USE, MY TOLERANCE HAD GOTTEN HIGH AT THAT POINT AND I HAD NO MEANS.

I BASICALLY BECAME DESPERATE AND DECIDED TO TRY ANYTHING.

Rafael: SOMETIMES WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THIS THINK THEY FORGET THE HUMANITY BEHIND WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT.

TAKE US THROUGH A DAY WHEN YOU WERE BOOSTING.

I MEAN, HOW DID YOU PICK YOUR DECIDE WHAT TO TAKE? HOW OFTEN DID YOU BOOST IN A WEEK?

FOR ME A DAY WOULD BE I WOULD WAKE UP AND IMMEDIATELY HAVE WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS.

IF I HAD NO MONEY, BASICALLY WOULD TRY TO PICK A LOCATION.

BASICALLY THAT WAS CLOSEST TO ME I GET TO IT BY A NEARBY TRAIN STATION.

I COULD GO IN AND OUT QUICKLY NOT DISTURB ANYBODY.

OBVIOUSLY, YOU ARE DISTURBING PEOPLE BY DOING THAT BUT TRIED TO PICK A SPOT I COULD GET IN, GET OUT AND GET TO SOMEBODY.

SELL IT SO I COULD GET MY WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS TAKEN AWAY.

AND NOT BE SICK.

JUST HOP ON THE TRAIN GO TO THE NEAREST LOCATION.

THAT WOULD SEEM TO BE WHATEVER IS QUICK.

IT IS HARD á THERE IS NO RATIONALIZATION WHEN YOU ARE DOING THOSE TYPES OF THINGS WERE SO DESPERATE AND IN SUCH NEED.

YOU KNOW, FOR YOUR SYMPTOMS TO BE CURED.

YOU PRETTY MUCH DO WHATEVER YOU CAN TO OBTAIN THAT DRUG.

Rafael: AND TELUS, IF YOU CAN.

WHAT KIND OF EMOTIONAL, PSYCHOLOGICAL TOLL DID THIS BOOSTING THAT ACCOMPANIED YOUR DRUG ADDICTION TAKE ON YOU?

Guest: IT IS TERRIBLE YOU ARE AT THE LOWEST POINT.

I WAS AT THE LOWEST POINT I HAD EVER BEEN AT MY LIFE.

GOING IN THERE SOMETIMES YOU WILL HEAR THE WORKERS SAYING STOP, CUT IT OUT OR I WILL CALL THE POLICE AND STUFF LIKE THAT.

I DID NOT WANT TO BECOME CONFRONTATIONAL WITH ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE.

UNDERSTOOD THEY WERE GOOD HARD-WORKING PEOPLE DOING THEIR JOBS.

AND I NO IF IT WAS NOT FOR MY SICKNESS I WOULD NOT BE IN THAT SITUATION I WAS IN.

BUT I WAS THERE.

BY THE TIME I AM OUT THE STORE AND ON MY WAY TO FENCE THESE ITEMS OFF.

I JUST START FEELING TERRIBLE.

I FEEL WORTHLESS.

HUMAN BEING.

KNOWING THAT IS NOT WHO I WAS BOTHERED ME.

BUT I BECAME THAT PERSON FOR THAT TIME BEING.

IT IS JUST á YOU KNOW, I KNOW WHAT I WAS DOING WAS WRONG.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME I FEEL LIKE I CANNOT STOP BECAUSE IT IS THE ONLY WAY.

IT TAKES A HUGE TOLL ON ME.

TO THIS DAY I REGRET THOSE ACTIONS AND TABLE DEPRESSION FROM DOING THOSE TYPES OF THINGS.

YOU SORT OF GET A LITTLE BIT OF A RUSH.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING ILLEGAL THE ADRENALINE COMES AND YOU KNOW YOU COULD POTENTIALLY GET CAUGHT.

AND YOU KNOW EVENTUALLY YOU PROBABLY WILL.

THERE IS TECHNOLOGY THE OFFICIAL RECOGNITION AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO IT IS JUST A TERRIBLE FEELING.

AFTER THE RUSH DAYS DOWN I WOULD FEEL WORTHLESS.

YOU KNOW, LIKE I HAVE TO DO THIS AND BECOME ANGRY WITH MYSELF.

Rafael: TALIA SOMETHING YOU TRIED TO TALK WOULD YOU TALK, TO JAMES FOR THE ARTICLE.

IS THE REALITY OF AN ADDICTIVE BOOSTER IS NO LESS DESPERATE THAN THE DESPERATION THAT MAY BE FELT BY A DESPERATE FAMILY LOOKING FOR BASIC NECESSITIES.

I MEAN THERE ARE OTHER THINGS YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT WE WILL TALK ABOUT HERE.

THAT IS SOMETHING YOU WANTED TO ó, AM I RIGHT?

Talia: YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT AND I WANT TO THANK YOU YOU FOR HAVING US HERE.

HEARING OUR STORY AND LISTENING TO A PUBLIC DEFENDER AT A PUBLIC DEFENDER'S CLIENT.

WE DON'T NORMALLY GET TO SHARE OUR STORIES AT OUR CLIENT STORIES.

ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TOóIS THAT I REMEMBER VERY WELL WHEN I FIRST THAT DENNIS.

TYPICALLY ON A PUBLIC DEFENDER MEETS MOST OF THEIR CLIENTS THEY ARE AT THEIR LOWEST POINT.

SO WHEN I FIRST MET DENNIS I REMEMBER VERY WELL WHAT HE LOOKS AND HIS DEMEANOR.

AND THAT IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO RAISE HIS HEAD FROM THE TABLE BETWEEN OUR INTERVIEWING AREA.

WE DON'T GET TO SIT WITH SOMEBODY THERE IS A BAR BETWEEN US.

AND HE WAS AT HIS LOWEST POINT.

AND I HAVE KNOWN DENNIS NOW FOR SEVERAL YEARS NOW.

Dennis: ABOUT THREE YEARS, FOUR YEARS.

Talia: TO WORK, AND TALK AND BE WITH DENNIS.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS A PERSON WHO WAS SICK.

AND NOW, AS YOU CAN SEE, HE IS WELL.

AND I THINK THAT THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS THAT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND.

ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE AT RIKERS ISLAND.

THAT ARE CALLED BAD PEOPLE THEY ARE NOT BAD PEOPLE.

AND SO I WOULD LIKE TO

Rafael: WE WILL TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS YOU TALKED ABOUT IN THE ARTICLE.

JAMES, AND THAT ARTICLE JAMES: YOU WRITE THIS ABOUT THE SHOPLIFTING SPREE THAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING.

QUOTE, WHETHER THE CRISIS IS REAL OR THE CONTINUATION OF A LONG-STANDING TREND REMAINS UP FOR DEBATE.

THAT SURPRISED ME.

DO YOU HAVE SOME DOUBTS ABOUT THE NYPD STATISTICS ABOUT THE BOOSTING GOING UP 66 PERCENT OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS? AND STATISTICS ASIDE, YOU KNOW, AS THE GREAT BARD SAID YOU DON'T NEED A WEATHERMAN TO KNOW WHICH WAY THEY WENT CLOSE.

I HAVE LIVED IN NEW YORK OVER 40 YEARS BUT IT WAS ONLY LAST YEAR I SAW A BOOSTING IN PROGRESS.

AND I KNOW OTHER PEOPLE HAVE HAD THAT SAME EXPERIENCE.

IS THERE ANY DOUBT THIS IS SOMETHING NEW?

James: WHILE THIS IS A NATIONAL CONVERSATION.

I THINK I WAS WRITING GENERALLY ABOUT THAT NATIONAL TREND AND NOT NECESSARILY QUESTIONING NYPD STATISTICS.

I THINK IT IS UNDENIABLE, AS YOU SAY, SHOPLIFTING TO THE AVERAGE PERSON.

TO THE AVERAGE CONSUMER SEEMS MORE PREVALENT THAN IT EVER HAS BEEN USING IT ON THE NIGHTLY NEWS CONSTANTLY.

AND I SPOKE WITH ONE POLICE OFFICER IN OHIO CHALKED WHO IT UP TO THE PROLIFERATION OF CELL PHONE CAMERAS AND SAID I SEE THE SAME AMOUNT OF BOOSTING AND SHOPLIFTING AS I DID IN THE 90s.

SO REALLY WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT IS STATISTICS.

AND AS I SAID, STATISTICALLY SPEAKING IT IS INCREDIBLY HARD TO UNDERSTAND THE SCOPE OF THE PROBLEM.

THE FBI NUMBERS ARE NOT REALLY HELPFUL AND SHOPLIFTING IS AN UNDERREPORTED CRIME.

MANY LARGE RETAILERS HAVE POLICIES AGAINST CALLING THE POLICE WHEN EMPLOYEES WITNESS SHOPLIFTING.

WE ARE REALLY LEFT WITH A NARRATIVE THAT IS DRIVEN LARGELY BY RETAILERS.

WHO ARE THE ONE SAYING THIS IS HOW MUCH WE HAVE LOST DO TO SHOPLIFTING.

AND WE TAKE THOSE NUMBERS ON FAITH IN THE MEDIA OFTEN.

WHICH IF YOU LOOK CLOSELY EVEN SOMETIMES EXECUTIVES GET IT WRONG.

THE CFO OF WALGREENS LAST YEAR STARTED THE YEAR ON A CALL.

SAYING SHOPLIFTING WAS OUT OF CONTROL.

PROFESSIONAL BOOSTERS WERE OUT OF CONTROL IT WAS HURTING THEIR BOTTOM LINE.

THIS IS THE COMPANY THAT OWNS DUANE READE.

AND THEN AT THE END OF THE YEAR LAST YEAR ON THAT SAME SORT OF INVESTORS GOLF IS THAT WE CALLED BOTH ON SHOPLIFTING I THINK WE WENT TOO HARD ON IT.

YOU KNOW, THERE IS NOT A LOT OF DATA FOR US TO UNDERSTAND THE REAL SCOPE OF THE PROBLEM.

Rafael: THE MOST BIG STORES, BIG RETAIL STORES SEEM TO BE SOMETHING UNIQUE IS HAPPENING.

BECAUSE AS YOU WRITE THEY STARTED THEIR á THEY DEVELOP THEIR OWN PREVENTION AND INVESTIGATION DEPARTMENT WHICH I THOUGHT WAS INVOLVING EXPENSIVE AND HIM PROCEDURES.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

James: BIG RETAILERS RECOGNIZE PETTY LARCENY'S, ARE NOT THE POLICE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY.

SO THEY WANT TO BUILD THESE CASES.

ESPECIALLY TARGETED, AS WE TALK ABOUT, ORGANIZED RETAIL THEFT.

THE WAY THEY DO THAT IS HIGHER FORMER LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS AND TARGET HOW THE FORENSIC LAB.

NEAR ITS HEADQUARTER, CVS, HAS ITS OWN SURVEILLANCE.

THEY ARE USING THESE NEW CREATIVE TECHNOLOGIES TO STOP SHOPLIFTING.

WHAT THEY MEASURE, THEY MEASURE SHRINK.

WHICH IS THIS ALL IMPORTANT NUMBER THEY USE.

IT IS MERCHANDISE THAT IS LOST DO TO SHOPLIFTING, DO TO EMPLOYEE THEFT AND THEIR OWN ERRORS.

EVERY YEAR THEY LOOK AT THAT SHRINK AND SAY THIS NUMBER IS PRETTY STATIC SINCE 2016 ACCORDING TO ONE OF THE BIGGEST TRADE GROUPS IN RETAIL.

SO THEY WANT TO GIVE THAT NUMBER AS LOW AS POSSIBLE.

YOU KNOW, WE DON'T GET TO SEE á PEER BEHIND THE CURTAIN AND UNDERSTAND THE NUMBER AS IT RELATES TO SHOPLIFTING.

WE SAID SHOPLIFTING IS GETTING BAD SO SHOPLIFTING MUST BE GETTING BAD.

Rafael: TALK ABOUT THE ROLE ONLINE RETAIL PLACE IN THIS?

James: NUMBER ONE, THERE IS THIS TENSION BETWEEN BRICK AND MORTAR RETAIL AND ONLINE RETAIL TO BEGIN WITH.

WHERE ONLINE RETAIL IS LOOKING AT BRICK AND MORTAR AND SAYING YOU ARE DINOSAURS.

MAYBE YOU SHOULD LOOK AT YOUR BUSINESS MODEL IS ONE OF THE REASONS YOUR SALES ARE GOING DOWN.

AT THE OTHER END OF THAT, BRICK AND MORTAR LOOKING AT ONLINE RETAIL MARKETPLACES.

AMAZON, FACEBOOK MARKETPLACE.

EBAY, THOSE PLACES MAKE IT QUITE EASY NOW FOR SO-CALLED E-FENCING WHICH IS SELLING STOLEN GOODS ANONYMOUSLY ONLINE.

SO I LOOKED CLOSELY AN E-FENCING AT OUT OF THE DIAMOND START WHERE ONE FENCE WAS OVERSEEN A GROUP OF 50 BOOSTERS COMING.

30 OR SO BOOSTERS COMING TO HIM WITH STOLEN PRODUCT.

AND HE WOULD SELL THEM ON EBAY AND HE COULD DO IT WITH RELATIVE ANONYMITY.

AND, YOU KNOW, MAKE A TINY PROFIT.

Rafael: THE PROFILE OF THAT GUY IS AMAZING.

I RECOMMEND READING IT IF JUST FOR THAT TO KNOW THIS.

AND THE CONSUMER HAVE THE ROLE.

THE STUFF FOR REALLY CHEAP.

THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT YOUR ARTICLE IS UNWITTINGLY WE PARTICIPATE IN THIS RING BECAUSE THERE ARE THINGS BUY WE HAVE NO IDEA ARE PURLOINED OR HAVE COMPONENTS THAT ARE STOLEN.

GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF THAT.

James: SURE, WHEN BUY WE ON AMAZON NOT BUYING FROM AMAZON THERE ARE THIRD-PARTY SELLERS.

AND NATURALLY, ITEMS I DO NOT DO RESEARCH INTO A THIRD-PARTY SELLER THAT IS SELLING ME MY, YOU KNOW, MY SHAMPOO THAT IS A DEEPLY DISCOUNTED PRICE.

SO AMAZON FOR ITS PART IS REALLY HEATING UP ITS MEASURES TO MAKE SURE THIRD-PARTY SELLERS ARE ABOVEBOARD, LEGITIMATE.

ALL THIRD-PARTY SELLERS HAVE TO PASS IN PERSON VERIFICATION.

BUT BRICK AND MORTAR RETAILERS ARE SAYING AMAZON IS STILL TRADING MILLIONS AND BILLIONS IN STOLEN GOODS.

EVERY YEAR.

IN PROPERTY FROM IT.

Rafael: THE EXAMPLE I AM THINKING OF IS YOU POINTED OUT WE MAY GET A OF COFFEE FROM A STORE IN THE CORNER AND THE BEANS ARE STOLEN.

IN A GOES THAT WAY.

AT ANY EVENT IN THIS ARTICLE THAT JAMES WROTE HE SAID, QUOTE, BOOSTERS LIKE TO SAY SHOPLIFTING IS THE LESSER OF MANY EVILS.

BETTER THAN ROBBING PEOPLE ON THE STREET OR IN THE SUBWAY STATION.

AND THEN ONE PARTICULAR BOOSTER TOLD SAM'S SAID, QUOTE, IT KEEPS CRIME DOWN.

IS THAT WHAT YOU BELIEVE? IS THAT WHEN YOU BELIEVED THEN? IS THAT WHAT YOU BELIEVE NOW? THAT SHOPLIFTING IS THE LESSER OF ALL OF THESE?

James: I GUESS A LITTLE LESSER OF THE EVILS.

BECAUSE IT IS STILL EVIL IT IS STILL A CRIME.

IT IS HARD TO SAY IN SOMEBODY'S ISAAC CAN BE JUST AS MUCH OF A CRIME.

YOU KNOW IT IS A CRIME.

OBVIOUSLY DIFFERENT LEVELS OF CRIME WHETHER THIS DEMEANORS, FELONIES, NONVIOLENT FELONIES, IT IS PRETTY LOW ON THE TOTEM POLE.

AS FAR AS NATIONAL LAW.

IN ALL STATES IT IS LOW IN THE TOTAL OF CRIMINAL LAW GOES.

AND SO I KNOW IN A LOT OF INSTANCES WHERE PEOPLE.

INSTEAD OF GETTING A ROBBERY CHARGE WOULD PULL A GUN AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

THEY WOULD RATHER GO TO A STORE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

AND DO THAT TYPE OF CRIME BECAUSE IT IS LESS á INSTEAD OF ROBBING A PERSON YOU FEEL YOU ARE ROBBING A CORPORATION.

THE CORPORATION HAS MONEY TO BURN, I GUESS THEY WOULD SAY.

IT IS LESS OF A CRIME IN TERMS OF PENALTY WISE.

IT IS LESS OF A CRIME.

IT IS HARD TO SAY IT IS THE LESSER OF THE EVILS, IT IS STILL AN EVIL.

I CANNOT AGREE WITH THAT BUT I DO SEE THE VALIDITY IN THE STATEMENT.

Rafael: WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT ARGUMENT?

Talia: I THINK, AS ALWAYS, I LIKE TO LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE INVOLVED.

AND WHAT THE RAMIFICATIONS ARE IN THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN WHAT IS DRIVING THEM.

TO STEAL FROM A STORE, TO COMMIT THESE TYPE OF CRIMES.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ALWAYS COMES TO ME WHEN I AM HEARING ABOUT THE UPTICK IN SHOPLIFTING OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS.

THERE IS A CRIME WAVE AND PEOPLE SUGGEST REFORMS ARE THE REASONS.

BAIL REFORM IS A REASON WE ARE LETTING EVERYBODY OUT.

REALLY IT IS A FALSE NARRATIVE.

THE MAIN ISSUE HERE IS WHY ARE WE NOT PROVIDING LESS BARRIERS TO TREATMENT FOR SUBSTANCE ABUSE? AND MENTAL ILLNESS? AND CAUSES OF POVERTY?

Rafael: I WANT TO GET TO THAT SPECIFICALLY BEFORE THE END OF THE CONVERSATION.

BUT SINCE YOU BRING IT UP LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CONNECTION OR LACK OF CONNECTION BETWEEN THE BAIL REFORM LAWS AND THE UPTICK, IF IT EXISTS, IN BOOSTING AND SHOPLIFTING.

THAT THERE IS A CONNECTION, THE MAYOR SAYS.

YOU ARE RECORDED IN THE JAMES ELABORATE ON THIS.

SINCE 2019 THE NYPD SAYS THAT IS THE BEGINNING OF THE SHOPLIFTING.

THAT IS JANUARY 1ST, 2020, THAT IS WHEN THE BAIL REFORM LAWS.

IT SEEMS TO BE AN OVERLAP.

Talia: THERE SEEMS TO BE AN OVERLAP OF THE NATIONWIDE SURGE THAT IS REPORTED AND BAIL REFORM HAPPENED IN NEW YORK 2020.

WHAT ELSE DID WE HAVE 2020?

COVID.

RIGHT? SO ALL OF A SUDDEN MOST PEOPLE THAT ARE AT THEIR LOWEST LEVELS OF ECONOMIC DISPARITIES WORK IN RETAIL OR THE RESTAURANTS.

OUR OUT OF JOBS.

ARE BECOMING ON HOUSE.

SO ACROSS THE NATION IF YOU LOOK AT ANY TYPE SURGE OF IN CRIME YOU WILL SEE THAT.

TO SAY IT IS BAIL REFORM BECAUSE IT IS ALSO HAPPENING IN NEW YORK CITY.

IS WHY I CALL THAT ASSERTION ABSURD.

YOU GET LOOK AT ANYTHING IN A VACUUM.

I THINK IT IS SAY THAT BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE ARE GETTING RELEASED ON PETTY LARCENIES OR NONVIOLENT CRIME.

THAT IS WHY WE HAVE THIS SURGE.

LET'S MAKE SURE WE GIVE JUDGES THE ABILITY TO PUT ALL THESE PEOPLE BACK IN JAIL.

BECAUSE THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN WHAT WE HAVE DONE.

INSTEAD OF LOOKING AT WHAT ARE THE ALTERNATIVES TO CHANGING THE WAY THINGS DID NOT WORK BEFORE.

Rafael: WHAT ARE THE ALTERNATIVES? WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING?

Talia: WE SHOULD BE INCREASING.

NOT 50 THE MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE.

BUT THOUSANDS OF BEDS, CENTERS FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE UNHOUSED ON THE STREETS WHO NEED TO STEAL SOCKS FROM BLOOMINGDALE'S IN ORDER TO SURVIVE.

BECAUSE THEY NEED TO RESELL THEM TO GIVE WHATEVER IT IS THEY NEED TO SELF MEDICATE.

BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE RESOURCES IN WHICH THEY CAN GO TO THE PSYCHIATRIST AND GET A GREAT PLAN FOR THEIR BIPOLAR OR SCHIZOPHRENIA DISEASES.

WE NEED MORE ADDICTION CENTERS.

WE NEED PEOPLE WHO GET TANGLED IN THE SYSTEM TO HAVE NO BARRIERS TO TREATMENT.

INSTEAD OF CREATING LARGER AND MORE CUMBERSOME TIME FRAMES TO GET THEM OUT OF RIKERS WHERE PEOPLE ARE DYING.

AND WE ALL KNOW PEOPLE ARE DYING AND PEOPLE AT RIKERS ISLAND ARE GETTING BEATEN THEY ARE GETTING SICK.

AND GETTING PEOPLE BETTER.

RIGHT? LIKE DENNIS.

Rafael: WE ONLY HAVE A MINUTE AND A HALF LEFT AND I WANT TO GET TO DENNIS.

YOU TURNED YOUR LIFE AROUND, WHAT DID IT FOR YOU? AND YOU HAVE ONE MINUTE, I AM SORRY.

Dennis: MANY THINGS.

JUST OVERALL THE FIRST TIME I WENT TO RIKERS ISLAND I WAS 29 YEARS OLD.

GREW UP IN A GOOD FAMILY, CAME FROM A GOOD HOUSEHOLD.

GRADUATED COLLEGE AND EVERYTHING.

POSITIVE WITH MY LIFE.

BASICALLY I SAW THIS WAS NOT THE TIME TO LET THIS GO ON ANY FURTHER.

I BECAME SICK OF IT.

I DID NOT WANT TO DO ANYMORE.

I BELIEVE THIS IS THE TIME TO TURN IT AROUND.

AND I DID NOT WANT TO BE THAT GUY ANYMORE I WOULD BASICALLY DO EVERYTHING IN MY POWER TO NOT BE IN THAT SITUATION AGAIN.

AND NOT GO BACK TO JAIL.

AND THAT ALSO MY FAMILY WANTED TO BE A BETTER PERSON FOR THEM.

MY NIECES AND MY NEPHEW.

BUT MAINLY FOR MYSELF I CANNOT DO IT WITHOUT THE HELP OF MY ATTORNEY.

MY FAMILY AND ALSO WITH THE COURSES GIVEN ME AN OPPORTUNITY FOR TREATMENT.

WHICH IS NOT GET.

WHAT DID GET IT TOOK ADVANTAGE OF IT.

AND HOPE THAT OPTION IS THERE FOR OTHER PEOPLE IN THE FUTURE.

Rafael: THAT IS IT.

WE WILL HAVE TO LEAVE.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US IT IS BEEN A PLEASURE HAVING YOU.

Talia: THANK YOU.

Dennis: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

METROFOCUS IS MADE POSSIBLE SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G.

PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY...