MetroFocus: October 11, 2022

> TONIGHT, THE FREDERICK DOUGLASS STORY YOU HAVEN'T HEARD ABOUT THE POWER OF CONTROLLING YOUR OWN IMAGE.

HOW THE SLAVE TURNS STATESMAN EMBRACED PHOTOGRAPHY AS A TOOL FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE AND ACHIEVING EQUALITY.

THEN, WHY INTERRACIAL FRIENDSHIPS COULD HOLD THE SECRET THE OVERCOMING WHITE SUPREMACY.

'METROFOCUS' STARTS RIGHT NOW.

♪♪

> THIS IS 'METROFOCUS,' WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD, AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

> 'METROFOCUS' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY --

> GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO 'METROFOCUS.'

I'M JACK FORD.

AFTER ESCAPING FROM SLAVERY, FREDERICK DOUGLASS WENT ON TO BECOME ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT INFLUENTIAL AND WELL KNOWN FIGURES OF THE 19th CENTURY.

A NEW PBS DOCUMENTARY TITLED, 'BECOMING FREDERICK DOUGLASS' TELLS HIS STORY LARGELY THROUGH HIS OWN WORDS AND IMAGES.

THE FILM FOCUSES ON HIS LIFE LONG NARRATIVE AND THE RIGHT TO FREEDOM AND EQUALITY FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS.

LET'S TAKE A QUICK LOOK.

HE'S BECOMING AN ORATOR, A STATESMAN.

AND FOR FREDERICK DOUGLASS, BECOMING IS AN EVER-UNFOLDING PROCESS.

FREDERICK DOUGLASS WAS SO IMPORTANT AS AN ADVOCATE FOR JUSTICE.

FROM BEING ENSLAVED AND NOT BEING TAUGHT TO READ OR WRIGHT AND BEING THIS INCREDIBLE FIGURE, NOT ONLY FOR THE ON HISSING OF SLAVERY, BUT FOR THE EQUALITY OF ALL PEOPLE.

YOU DON'T GET TRANSFORMATIVE CHANGE BY NOT LISTENING TO THE RADICAL DOUGLASS.

WE REALLY TRIED TO DIVE INTO HIS UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT REPRESENTATION MEANS.

HE UNDERSTOOD THAT NEGATIVE DEPICTIONS HAD AN IMPACT.

REPRESENTATION MEANS EVERYTHING.

FREDERICK DOUGLASS CHALLENGES US TO BECOME THE FULLEST EXPRESSION OF OURSELVES AND OUR IDEALS.

JOINING US NOW SO TALK ABOUT THIS NEW PBS DOCUMENTARY AND THE MAN WHO INSPIRED IT IS STANLEY NELSON, THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER AND CODIRECTOR OF 'BECOMING FREDERICK DOUGLASS,' AS WELL AS 'HARRIET TUBMAN', WHICH WE RECENTLY HAD ON 'METROFOCUS.'

I'M GOING TO ASK YOU A QUESTION THAT'S SIMILAR TO THE QUESTION I ASKED ABOUT THE TUBMAN FILM.

THAT IS WHY -- YOU HAVE HAD SUCH GREAT AND SUCCESSFUL EXPERIENCE CHRONICLING AFRICAN AMERICANS AND THE AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY AND STORIES.

SO WHY DID YOU FEEL THAT THIS WAS A GOOD TIME TO TELL THE STORY OF FREDERICK DOUGLASS?

WELL, ON ONE LEVEL, FREDERICK DOUGLASS' STORY IS TIMELESS, AND IT CAN BE TOLD ANY TIME.

BUT I FELT THERE WAS SO MUCH MYTH SURROUNDING FREDERICK DOUGLASS THAT SO MUCH OF WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT FREDERICK DOUGLASS, WE MIGHT HAVE LEARN IN THE GRADE SCHOOL AND IT WASN'T VERY NUANCED.

SO THERE WAS MUCH MORE TO LEARN ABOUT FREDERICK DOUGLASS, ESPECIALLY HOW HE BECAME THE FREDERICK DOUGLASS WE ALL KNOW, AT LEAST IN MYTH.

THAT'S INTERESTING, AND YOU LEAD ME NICELY TO MY FIRST QUESTION.

THE TITLE IS 'BECOMING FREDERICK DOUGLASS'. WHY WAS IT SO IMPORTANT TO YOU THAT THIS FOCUSES ON HIS BECOMING WHO HE EVENTUALLY BECAME?

WELL, I THINK THERE'S TWO ANSWERS TO THAT.

ONE, THE EASY ANSWER, IS WE HAD AN HOUR.

YOU KNOW, WE HAD AN HOUR TO MAKE A FILM, AND FREDERICK DOUGLASS LED SUCH AN INCREDIBLE LIFE AND LONG LIFE AND A LIFE THAT WAS SO VARIED THAT WE COULDN'T COVER HIS WHOLE LIFE.

WE SAID, WHAT CAN WE COVER AND WHAT CAN WE COVER EXTENSIVELY AND WHAT CAN WE COVER WITH ENOUGH FOCUS TO MAKE THIS FILM REALLY WORK?

WE CHOSE THE FIRST HALF OF HIS LIFE WHERE HE GOES FROM BEING AN ENSLAVED YOUNG MAN WITH NO PROSPECTS OR ANYTHING ELSE -- HE ESCAPES ENSLAVEMENT, HE BECOMES AN INCREDIBLE SPEAKER, WRITER FOR THE ABOLITIONIST MOVEMENT.

FINALLY HAS HIS OWN NEWSPAPER AND ALSO INFLUENCES ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

SO HE GOES FROM AN ENSLAVED YOUNG MAN TO BECOMING FREDERICK DOUGLASS, AND THAT'S HOW WE WANTED TO KIND OF FRAME THE FILM, HOW HE BECAME THIS INCREDIBLE HUMAN BEING.

AND I DO WANT TO SAY, IT'S A MARVELOUS FILM, VERY POWERFUL AND ILLUMINATING.

AND TO ME, AGAIN, I THOUGHT I KNEW A LOT ABOUT FREDERICK DOUGLASS AND WALKED AWAY AT VARIOUS POINTS SAYING, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT EITHER.

SO YOU CERTAINLY SUCCEED IN THE TELLING THE STORY OF A MAN WHO MANY OF US THOUGHT WE KNEW BUT TRULY DIDN'T.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT A COUPLE OF THING US MENTIONED BEFORE.

LET'S START WITH A QUICK SYNOPSIS OF FREDERICK DOUGLASS, THE MAN BORN INTO SLAVERY, THE ENSLAVED YOUNG MAN, AND THEN HOW HE ESCAPED.

JUST AS A BACKDROP FOR THE REST OF OUR CONVERSATION.

YEAH, FREDERICK DOUGLASS WAS BORN IN RAISED IN MARYLAND, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THAT MARYLAND WAS A SLAVE STATE.

SO, YOU KNOW, HE'S ENSLAVED IN MARYLAND, AND HE BASICALLY TEACHES HIMSELF TO READ AND WRITE.

HE TRADES BISCUITS THAT THE PEOPLE MAKE, TRADES THAT FOR WORDS, BASICALLY.

SO HE TEACHES HIMSELF HOW TO READ AND WRITE, AND FINALLY HE ESCAPED ENSLAVEMENT, AND THAT'S ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT MARYLAND IS THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE VERY CLOSE TO PENNSYLVANIA, WHICH IS NOT A SLAVE STATE.

SO HE ESCAPES TO PENNSYLVANIA AND THEN HE'S ASKED TO SPEAK AT AN ABOLITIONIST MOVEMENT, JUST, BY THE WAY, LET'S HEAR FROM THIS GUY WHO WAS ENSLAVED.

AND HE GETS UP AND STARTS SPEAKING AND HE'S MESMERIZING, AND HE JUST IS SO ELOQUENT.

HE'S TALKING ABOUT ENSLAVEMENT FROM THE INSIDE OUT, AND HE BECOMES ONE OF THE GREATEST SPEAKERS IF THE ABOLITIONIST MOMENT AND STARTS TO BECOME THE FREDERICK DOUGLASS THAT WE KNOW.

SO MANY STORIES, THE STORY OF HIS ESCAPE ITSELF IS FASCINATING, AND PEOPLE WILL SEE THAT.

AGAIN, SOMETHING I DIDN'T KNOW.

YOU MENTIONED HE BECOMES ONE OF THE GREATEST SPEAKERS, PERHAPS THE GREATEST SPEAKER IN TERMS OF THE ABOLITION MOVEMENT.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TODAY TO UNDERSTAND THE IMPACT THAT LECTURES AND SPEAKING OPPORTUNITIES HAD ON SOCIETY AND HOW VERY DIFFERENT IT IS FOR US TODAY.

EXPLAIN THAT.

YEAH, THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE TALK ABOUT IN THE FILM, THAT GOING TO HEAR PEOPLE SPEAK WAS LIKE GOING TO THE MOVIES TODAY.

YOU KNOW?

SO THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE DID THAT WAS THE WAY YOU GOT INFORMATION.

THAT WAS IN MANY WAYS A FORM OF ENTERTAINMENT TO HEAR DIFFERENT SPEAKERS, AND FREDERICK DOUGLASS BECOMES ONE OF THE GREATEST SPEAKERS OF THE 19th CENTURY.

SOMEONE IN THE FILM SAYS, MORE PEOPLE MAY HAVE HEARD FREDERICK DOUGLASS SPEAK THAN ANYBODY IN THIS WHOLE COUNTRY EXCEPT MAYBE MARK TWAIN, WHO WAS AN INCREDIBLE TOURING SPEAKER.

SO SPEAKING WAS A HUGE THING, AND PEOPLE ACTUALLY WENT TO HEAR SPEAKERS.

AND FREDERICK DOUGLASS WAS A KIND OF STAR OF THE SPEAKING -- TOURING SPEAKERS.

SO MUCH OF THE FILM, AS I MENTIONED IN THE INTRODUCTION, IS BASED ON HIS OWN WORDS, AND YOU USED THE MARVELOUS WENDELL PIERCE TO PROVIDE HIS VOICE, AND HE'S SO WONDERFUL AT IT.

YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE TRULY LISTENING TO FREDERICK DOUGLASS.

BUT THE FILM ALSO MAKES THE POINT THAT IN SOME WAYS HE WAS SO ELOQUENT AND SO COMPELLING THAT IN THE MINDS OF SOME IT RAISED QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS LEGITIMACY.

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

YEAH, SO AT FIRST, YOU KNOW, FREDERICK DOUGLASS STARTS SPEAKING AND HE BECOMES A FAMOUS SPEAKER, AND PEOPLE START TO DOUBT.

HE'S SO ELOQUENT THEY'RE LIKE, WAIT A MINUTE.

WAS THIS GUY REALLY ENSLAVED?

DID HE REALLY TEACH HIMSELF TO READ AND WRITE?

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT.

SO FREDERICK DOUGLASS WRITES HIS FIRST OUT BIOGRAPHY.

I SAY FIRST BECAUSE HE EVENTUALLY WROTE THREE AUTOBIOGRAPHIES.

WRITES HIS FIRST WHICH GIVES HIS LIFE STORY UP UNTIL THEN.

BUT HE OUTS HIMSELF.

SO NOW HE'S WRITTEN IN A BOOK THAT BECOMES KIND OF A BEST SELLER OF THE DAY THAT HE IS AN ESCAPED SLAVE.

SO NOW HE HAS TO FLEE TO ENGLAND AND TO EUROPE TO GET AWAY FROM BEING TAKEN BACK INTO ENSLAVEMENT.

IT'S KIND OF A REALLY INCREDIBLE STORY.

YEAH, THAT'S ANOTHER PART OF HIS STORY THAT I DID NOT KNOW.

AND THE FILM TALKS ABOUT HOW HE THEN WRESTLED WITH THE NOTION OF -- THERE WERE SUPPORTERS IN ENGLAND, AND HE TRAVELED ALL OVER THE UK TO GIVE THESE LECTURES.

SUPPORTERS THAT SAID, WE'LL BUY YOUR FREEDOM.

WE'LL SEND MONEY TO YOUR PREVIOUS OWNER TO MAKE SURE THAT NOBODY'S GOING COME LOOKING FOR YOU.

AND THERE WAS A CONFLICT ABOUT WHETHER THAT SHOULD BE DONE OR NOT.

WHY WOULD THERE BE A CONFLICT ABOUT THAT?

I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST FASCINATING STORIES.

SO, THEY OFFERED TO BUY FREDERICK DOUGLASS AT THE FREEDOM, AND HE'S LIKE, OKAY, YEAH, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA.

IF YOU BUY MY FREEDOM, I CAN GO BACK TO THE UNITED STATES.

BUT THE OTHER ABOLITIONISTS ARE LIKE, NO, WE WANT TO YOU SPEAK AS A FUGITIVE SLAVE, AND WE WANT THAT KIND OF MYSTERY AND FASCINATION THAT NOW YOU'RE SPEAKING.

BUT, YOU KNOW, AT ANY MOMENT YOU COULD BE CAUGHT.

AND FREDERICK DOUGLASS SAYS NO, I'M NOT GOING TO DO THAT.

I THINK I CAN BE MORE VALUABLE IF I COME BACK TO THE UNITED STATES AND SPEAK, AND I CAN ONLY DO THAT AS A FREE MAN.

SO, THE CONSORTIUM IS PUT TOGETHER AND THEY BUY FREDERICK DOUGLASS' FILM.

SO MUCH OF THE FILM, AS I SAID, IS FOCUSED ON HIS WORDS AND HIS IMAGES.

THE FILM TALKS ABOUT HOW HE GRASPED, QUICKLY GRASPED THE POWER A THIS NEW EMERGING TECHNOLOGY OF PHOTOGRAPHY.

EXPLAIN THAT.

YEAH, ONE OF THE MOST AMAZING THINGS ABOUT FREDERICK DOUGLASS IS THAT THE WHOLE FIELD OF STILL PHOTOGRAPHY HAS JUST BEEN INVENTED.

IT'S NEW.

BUT FREDERICK DOUGLASS REALLY REALIZES THAT THERE'S THIS POWER IN PHOTOGRAPHY THAT, YOU KNOW, A PICTURE SAYS A THOUSAND WORDS.

AND SO HE OVER AND OVER AGAIN GETS HIS PORTRAIT TAKEN, AND HE IS JUST LASER FOCUSED IN THOSE PICTURES.

YOU KNOW, ONE, AS SOMEONE SAYS IN THE FILM, FREDERICK DOUGLASS WAS A BEAUTIFUL MAN, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR AESTHETICS OF BEAUTY WAS.

HE WAS REALLY GOOD LOOKING.

BUT HE'S STARING AT THE CAMERA IN THIS WAY THAT SAYS, REALLY, DO YOU THINK THAT THIS MAN SHOULD BE ENSLAVED?

THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT YOU'RE ENSLAVING.

THIS IS THE DIGNITY AND INTELLIGENCE OF THIS RACE OF PEOPLE, NOT JUST ME, BUT THE RACE OF PEOPLE.

AND HE DOES THAT JUST IN IN A PHOTOGRAPH.

AND WHEN YOU SEE THE PHOTOGRAPHS, YOU SEE IT AND FEEL IT AND HE BECOMES WHAT IS CHARACTERIZED AS THE MOST PHOTOGRAPHED MAN OF THE 19th CENTURY.

SO HE'S PHOTOGRAPHED OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AND WE HAVE THESE INCREDIBLE PICTURES TO WORK WITH.

THEY ARE SO POWERFUL.

IF ANYBODY'S SEEN A PHOTOGRAPH OF FREDERICK DOUGLASS THEY KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

THERE'S SUCH A POWER AND DIGNITY IN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS.

YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE FILM, AND DON'T HAVE A CHANCE TO GET INTO IT, BUT THE IDEA OF WHAT WAS IMPORTANT FOR HIM FOR COMPELLING OR FOR DIRECTING AND HAVING THE CONTROL OF HIS OWN NARITIVE HERE.

I'VE GOT ABOUT A MINUTE AND A HALF LEFT.

AND I SAY THIS OFTEN TO FILM MAKERS.

AS YOU'RE TAKING US AS YOUR VIEWER ON A JOURNEY OF DISCOVERY WE'RE LEARNING THINGS WE NEVER KNEW BEFORE.

DID YOU LEARN ANYTHING ON YOUR JOURNEY AS A PRODUCER AND DIRECTOR THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW BEFORE OR YOU DIDN'T REALIZE THE IMPORT OF IT BEFORE?

I REALIZED SO MUCH, BUT I THINK IT'S MORE ESOTERIC, THAT FIGHTING FOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS ITS OWN REWARD.

FREDERICK DOUGLASS RISKED HIS LIFE TO FIGHT FOR WHAT HE BELIEVED IN, TO WRITE ABOUT THINGS HE BELIEVED IN.

IT WASN'T ONLY ABOLITION, IT WAS FOR THE GOOD OF THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE.

ONE OF THE THINGS I LEARNED WAS, OKAY, FREDERICK DOUGLASS IS A SHINING LIGHT.

WE CAN'T ALL BE FREDERICK DOUGLASS.

CERTAINLY I CAN'T BE FREDERICK DOUGLASS, BUT I CAN FIGHT FOR WHAT I BELIEVE IN.

ONCE AGAIN, THE FILM IS CALLED 'BECOMING FREDERICK DOUGLASS'. IT'S POWERFUL AND A JOBBINGTIVE AND ILLUMINATING FILM.

MAKE SURE YOU CHECK YOUR LISTINGSER IF PBS FOR WHEN YOU CAN WATCH IT.

THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS STORY WITH ALL OF US, AND THANK YOU FOR SPENDING SOMG TIME WITH US TODAY WOMEN APPRECIATE IT.

LOOK FORWARD THE TALKING WITH YOU AGAIN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

YOU BE WELL.

THANK YOU.

♪♪

> GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO 'METROFOCUS.'

I'M JACK FORD.

FRIENDSHIP IS THE FOUNDATION OF SO MUCH GOOD IN YOUR LIVES, BUT COULD IT ALSO BE ONE OF THE KEYS TO OVERCOMING WHITE SUPREMACY AND BUILDING A BETTER FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY?

OUR NEXT GUEST, A FAMILIAR FACE HERE AT 'METROFOCUS' MADE IT HIS MISSION TO ANALYZE TWO CENTURIES OF NOTEWORTHY INTERRACIAL FRIENDSHIPS THAT HAVE OFTEN SERVED AS MODELS FOR ADVANCING RACIAL EQUITY AND EQUALITY.

FROM THOMAS JEFFERSON AND BENJAMIN BANNEKER, PERHAPS THE FIRST SYMBOL OF BLACK EXCELLENCE IN AMERICA TO JAZZ SINGER ELLA FITZGERALD AND ACTRESS MARILYN MONROE AND TO THEN PRESIDENT OBAMA AND VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN, RUTGERS PROFESSOR SALADIN AMBAR SHOWS US HOW ICONS HELPED BUILD A BETTER RACIAL DEMOCRACY, IN HIS NEW BOOK 'STARS AND SHADOWS, THE POLITICS OF INTERRACIAL RELATIONSHIP FROM JEFFERSON TO OBAMA'. IT IS OUR PLEASURE AS ALWAYS TO WELCOME PROFESSOR AMBAR.

PROFESSOR, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

GREAT TO SEE YOU, JACK.

ALWAYS GOOD TO BE ON 'METROFOCUS.'

LET'S START WITH A QUESTION I ASK JUST ABOUT EVERY AUTHOR, AND THAT IS HOW AND WHY DID THIS BOOK COME ABOUT?

WELL, JACK, THE SHORT ANSWER IS THAT I HAD BEEN WORKING ON A PROJECT RELATED TO W.E.B.

DUBOIS, SCHOLAR AND ACTIVIST, AND HIS FRIENDSHIP WITH WILLIAM JAMES, WHO WAS HIS HARVARD PROFESSOR.

THAT RELATIONSHIP WAS PRETTY SIGNIFICANT AND LED ME TO CONSIDER OTHER RELATIONSHIPS ACROSS THE RACIAL LINE THAT MATTERED IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

I THINK THE DEEPER SIGNIFICACE OF WHY I BEGAN THIS PROJECT WAS WHERE I WAS IN MY LIFE AND WHERE THE COUNTRY WAS IN TERMS OF -- SEEKING TO MARRY AWAY THE PERSONAL WITH THE POLITICAL THAT MIGHT ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA MIGHT WORK.

I GOT TELL YOU, I READ THE BOOK.

IT WAS MARVELOUS.

IT WAS A WONDERFUL CONFLUENCE OF INFORMATION.

EACH PAGE I FOUND MYSELF -- I WAS A HISTORY MAJOR.

I TEACH AT YALE ABOUT TRIALS AND WOVEN INTO HISTORY.

SO MANY OF THOSE STORIES I KNEW NOTHING ABOUT AND I FOUND THEM INCREDIBLY INFORMATIVE AND ENTERTAINING.

I WANT TO GET THAT OUT THERE FOR YOU.

YOU SUCCEEDED MAGNIFICENTLY IN WHAT YOU WANTED TO DO.

LET ME FOCUS ON SOME OF THE STORIES.

YOU TAKE TEN RELATIONSHIPS HERE IN THIS BOOK, AGAIN, STRETCHING OUT, STARTING FROM THOMAS JEFFERSON AND ENDING WITH PRESIDENT OBAMA AND THEN-VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN.

LET ME ASK TO YOU SHINE A LIGHT ON A COUPLE STORIES, WHY YOU FELT THEY WERE IMPORTANT TO YOU AND TO US AS READERS.

LET'S START WHERE YOU START, AND THAT IS, AS I MENTIONED, THOMAS JEFFERSON AND BENJAMIN BANNEKER.

TELL US WHY THAT WAS IMPORTANT, WHY YOU WANTED TO INCLUDE THAT RELATIONSHIP HERE.

WELL, HERE'S THOMAS JEFFERSON, REALLY IN 1791 AS THEN SECRETARY OF STATE, WELL KNOWN OBVIOUSLY AS THE AUTHOR OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, SOMEONE WHO HIRES BENJAMIN BANNEKER, FREE BLACK MAN IN THE STATE OF MARYLAND TO SERVE AS A SURVEYOR ON THE TEAM OF PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO OUTLINE WHAT WOULD BECOME THE OUTLINE OF THE BOUNDARIES FOR WASHINGTON, D.C.

HE DEVELOP AN ADMIRATION FOR BANNEKER AS A SCIENTIST AND BANNEKER APPRECIATES THAT EFFORT ON JEFFERSON'S PART TO RECOGNIZE HIM, BUT BANNEKER WRITES TO JEFFERSON LATER UPON RETURNING HOME FROM HIS SURVEYING EFFORTS IN WASHINGTON TO ADMONISH JEFFERSON ABOUT SLAVERY.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE THIS IS REALLY THE FIRST MOMENT IN WHICH AN AFRICAN AMERICAN REALLY LOCKS INTELLECTUAL ARMS, IF YOU WILL, WITH A FOUNDER OF THE AMERICAN REPUBLIC.

AND THERE'S A MOMENT IN THE EXCHANGE OF LETTERS WHERE NOT ONLY BANNEKER CHALLENGES JEFFERSON ON SLAVERY, BUT REALLY CALLS HIM TO TASK FOR BEING A HYPOCRITE, SOMEWHERE WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER, SOMEONE WHO SIGNED THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND DOES NOTHING TO FORWARD HUMAN PROGRESS ALONG THE LINES OF LIBERTY.

JEFFERSON WRITES BACK AND OF COURSE SAYS TO BANNEKER, I MARVEL AT YOUR TALENT.

I WISH IN SO MANY WORDS THERE WERE MORE NEGROS LIKE YOU, ET CETERA.

AND HE GOES AND FORWARDS BANNEKER'S ALMANAC TO FRANCE TO THE ACADEMY OF SCIENCES, AND LAUDS BANNEKER.

BUT WHAT HAPPENS IS THIS RELATIONSHIP REALLY CAN'T GO MUCH FURTHER, AND I THINK IT'S IN LARGE PART BECAUSE JEFFERSON IS WILLING TO TAKE THE POLITICAL RISKS WHICH COME WITH TRULY MAKING BANNEKER ONE OF THE HIS BRETHREN AS HE DESCRIBES IN THE LETTER.

SO IT'S THIS FIRST MOMENT, THIS FIRST FIT AND START IN AMERICAN NATIONAL POLITICS WHERE THE POSSIBILITIES OF INTERRACIAL FRIENDSHIP ARE BEING POTENTIALLY DEMONSTRATED TO THE NATION AND THEN REALLY DRAWN BACK IN A WAY THAT I THINK SIGNIFIES THAT THE COUNTRY IS NOT PREPARED OR NOT WILLING TO BE PREPARED TO GO FURTHER WITH RESPECT TO EXPANDING THE BOUNDARIES OF RACIAL JUSTICE.

SO MUCH OF THIS FIRST RELATIONSHIP IS STARTLING IN MANY WAYS, INCLUDING THE FACT THAT JEFFERSON WROTE BACK TO HIM, WITHIN DAYS.

NOW, AGAIN, YOU SAID, IT'S NOT A RELATIONSHIP THAT LASTED, BUT STILL, IT DID, AS I SAID, SHINE A LIGHT ON WHAT WAS GOING ON.

SPEAKING OF RELATIONSHIPS, AND ONCE THAT WERE A LITTLE MORE GENUINE AND LASTED MORE, YOU ALSO WRITE ABOUT FREDERICK DOUGLASS AND ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT BENJAMIN BANNEKER WE MENTIONED MAYBE THE FIRST BLACK MAN CELEBRATED FOR HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

FREDERICK DOUGLASS, WE KNOW AND YOU MENTION IN THE BOOK, PERHAPS THE MOST FAMOUS BLACK MAN IN THE WORLD AT THE TIME, CERTAINLY THE MOST PHOTOGRAPHED BLACK MAN IN THE WORLD AT THE TIME, AND A RELATIONSHIP WITH ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

IT CAME FROM A PLACE OF ANGER.

SOMETIMES FRIENDSHIPS COME FROM PLACES THAT ARE NOT THE MOST PLAZN'T.

DOUGLASS MEETS WITH LINCOLN IN 1863 AND WANTS TO CALL LINCOLN TO TASK ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF BLACK PAY.

SOLDIERS ARE BEING PAID $3 FEWER THAN WHITE SOLDIERS AND HE ADMONISHES LINCOLN ABOUT THIS.

HERE'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LINCOLN AND DOUGLAS VERSUS JEFFERSON AND BANNEKER.

LINCOLN PUSHES BACK AND ENGAGES IN AN HONEST EXCHANGE WITH DOUGLAS ABOUT HIS POSITION.

IN OTHER WORDS, FRIENDSHIP REQUIRES HONESTY.

IT REQUIRES TRUTH TELLING.

AND PEOPLE MAY DISAGREE AND REMAIN DISAGREEING FOR SOME TIME, BUT IN THAT HONEST EXCHANGE COMES SOMETHING ELSE, AND DOUGLASS LEAVES THAT FIRST MEETING SAYING ABOUT LINCOLN, I FELT LIKE A MAN IN THERE.

I NEVER FELT CONSCIOUS OF MY RACE.

I FELT BIG IN THERE.

I WAS ACKNOWLEDGED FOR WHO I AM.

I WAS NEVER MADE CONSCIOUS THERE WAS ANYTHING BETWEEN US IN TERM OF RACIAL DISTINCTIVENESS.

AND THAT'S IMPORTANT.

BY THE TIME LINCOLN MEETS DOUGLASS A SECOND TIME, THERE'S GREATER ADMIRATION, AND LINCOLN IS ASKING DOUGLASS TO ASSIST HIM WITH BRINGING OUT OF SLAVERY AFRICAN AMERICANS IN THE SOUTH WHO ARE ON PLANTATIONS, ENSLAVED, TO HELP THEM ESCAPE TO UNION LINES, TO THE UNION ARMY LINES SO THEY CAN BE FREED AND STRIKE A DAGGER BLOW TO THE HEART OF THE CONFEDERACY.

AND, YOU KNOW, LOOK, THIS IS A KIND OF CRAZY PLAN.

BUT DOUGLASS CONSIDERS IT.

IT NEVER COMES TO PASS FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS, BUT AT THEIR THIRD MEETING, THE SECOND INAUGURAL, LINCOLN DELIVERS IN MARCH OF 1865, DOUGLASS MEETS LINCOLN IN THE WHITE HOUSE, AND IT TAKE SOME DOING TO GET IN THERE.

HE'S INITIALLY NOT ALLOWED IN.

HE'S TOLD WE'RE NOT ALLOWED ADMISSION TO ANY COLORED CITIZENS, AND DOUGLASS SAYS, THAT ORDER COULD NOT HAVE BEEN DELIVERED BY ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

WHEN HE SEES HIM RESTRAINED BY THE GUARDS HE SAID, THERE IS MY FRIEND DOUGLASS.

POWER MOMENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT IS ARTICULATING WITH THE NEW BIRTH OF FREEDOM THAT HE SUGGESTED HAD TO HAPPEN AT GETTIESBURG WOULD LOOK LIKE.

THEY'RE ALL FOCUSED ON TO SOME EXTENT POLITICS BUT THERE ARE OTHERS THAT ARE NOT NECESSARILY POLITICAL BUT HAD AN IMPACT, AND I THINK ONE OF THE MORE FASCINATING ONES, THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ELLA FITZGERALD AND MARILYN MONROE, AND SOMETHING OF AN URBAN LEGEND ABOUT THEIR RELATIONSHIP THAT YOU DIG DEEPER INTO.

GIVE US A QUICK SENSE OF WHAT THAT STORY IS ABOUT.

THE OLD URBAN LEGEND AND WHAT SOCIAL MEDIA OFTEN GETS WRONG ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP IS THAT MARILYN MONROE SOMEHOW SAVED THE CAREER OF ELLA FITZGERALD BY TELLING THE OWNER AT THE McCOMBO CLUB, A FAMED CLUB IN LOS ANGELES IN HOLLYWOOD THAT SHE, MARILYN MONROE WOULD NOT EVER GRACE THE PRESENCE OF THAT CLUB AGAIN UNLESS HE ALLOWED ELLA FITZGERALD TO SING, BECAUSE THEY HAD A RACIAL BAN AGAINST BLACK ARTISTS.

WELL, THAT'S NOT QUITE WHAT HAPPENED.

FITZGERALD IS INDEED BLACKBALLED, IF YOU WILL, FROM ATTENDING AND PARTICIPATING AS A SINGER THERE, BUT IT'S BECAUSE SHE'S NOT SEXUALIZED ENOUGH.

SHE'S NOT THE KIND OF SHOW GIRL PRESENCE THAT THEY'RE LOOKING FOR.

BECAUSE THERE HAD BEEN BLACK SINGERS THERE.

BUT NEVERTHELESS MARILYN MACHINE ROE DOES EXTEND HER NECK.

SHE DOES REACH OUT AND SAY, I WILL USE ALL OF MY POWER TO SUPPORT YOU WITH MY HOLLYWOOD FRIENDS AND ARTISTS AT THE McCOMBO IF YOU GRANT HER ADMISSION AND LET HER SING.

AND THAT DOES HAPPEN.

WE GET SOME OF IT WRONG, BUT ULTIMATELY MARILYN RON MOE GETS IT RIGHT.

MAYBE GETS IT RIGHT FOR DIFFERENT REASONS THAN THE STORY WE TELL OURSELVES BUT SHE GET IT RIGHT NONETHELESS AND I THINK IS SUGGESTIVE OF THE FACT THAT SHE HERSELF WAS A LOT MORE DEEPER AND SIGNIFICANT THAN OFTEN GIVEN CREDIT FOR BEING GIVEN HOW SHE'S BEEN SO, YOU KNOW, REDUCED TO HER LOOKS OVER THE DECADES.

WE ALWAYS WRESTLE WITH, WHAT CAN WE DO?

ARE THERE THINGS WE CAN DO IN ESPECIALLY IN OUR CURRENT ENVIRONMENT, WHICH IS SO FRAUGHT WITH TENSION AND EVEN HOSTILITY.

YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK ABOUT THE NOTION THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE A COMMAND FOR US TO TALK TO STRANGERS.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT AND HOW IS THAT IMPORTANT?

I TAKE THAT TERM FROM DANIELLE ALLEN'S BOOK BY THE SAME TITLE, 'TALKING TO STRANGERS IS IMPORTANT', BECAUSE IT'S THE BLOCKING AND TACKLE OF DEMOCRACY.

WHEN YOUR INSTITUTIONS ARE FAILING, WHEN SO MUCH IS GOING WRONG IN A MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY, YOU GOT TO BE GETTING ASKED THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTIONS.

WHAT IS AT THE HEART OF WHO WE ARE?

AT THE HEART OF WHO WE ARE IS ROOTED IN THE IDEA OF CITIZENSHIP, FA TERNTY, BROTHERHOOD, SISTERHOOD, TIED TO WHO WE ARE AS HUMAN BEINGS, TIED TO SOMETHING DEEPER AND MORE INAFFABLE THAN INSTITUTIONS.

I JUST TAUGHT LINCOLN'S SECOND INAUGURAL ADDRESS, AND THE LAST WORDS OF THAT ADDRESS ARE, WITH THE WITH MALICE TOWARDS NONE, AND THAT'S A GOOD START, DON'T HATE, BUT LINCOLN GOES FURTHER, WITH CHARITY FOR ALL.

MALICE TOWARDS NONE IS PASSIVE, CHARITY FOR ALL REQUIRES ENERGY.

THAT'S WHAT FRIENDSHIP DOES, REQUIRES ENERGIES TO DIRECT OURSELVES TOWARD A BETTER FUTURE.

THAT WILL HAVE TO BE OUR LAST WORDS ALSO.

ONCE AGAIN, PROFESSOR, IT'S 'STARS IN SHADOWS' THE POLITICS OF INTERRACIAL FRIENDSHIP FROM JEFFERSON TO OBAMA.

IT IS A MARVELOUS READ.

ALWAYS GOOD TO TALK WITH YOU.

YOU TAKE CARE.

LIKEWISE, JACK.

THANK YOU.

> 'METROFOCUS' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY --