Metrofocus: April 13, 2022

CAN QUALITY OF LIFE CRACKDOWN STEM CITYWIDE SURGE OF CRIME?

Tonight, in the aftermath of the Brooklyn subway attack, we take a close look at public safety, policing, and quality of life. In New York City, as in many cities across the country, crime has been on the rise in the post-covid era and innocent people are being shot and killed with troubling regularity. To address this, Mayor Adams recently implemented controversial policies that seemed unthinkable just a short time ago. First, he revived the NYPD’s notorious anti-gun unit. Then, he announced a crackdown on quality-of-life offenses- a move that critics immediately tagged as a problematic return to the broken-windows era of the 1990’s. But could it be a solution? Tonight, John Ketcham, the Manhattan Institute fellow who penned a recent New York Daily News opinion piece titled, “Broken windows policing is exactly what New York City needs now” joins us.

TRANSCRIPT

> TONIGHT, THE SUSPECT IN THE BROOKLYN SUBWAY SHOOTING IS IN CUSTODY.

62-YEAR-OLD FRANK JAMES WAS CAPTURED IN MANHATTAN THANKS TO A CRIMESTOPPERS TIP.

THE INVESTIGATION TURNS TO MOTIVES.

POLICE ARE LOOKING AT A NUMBER OF ANGRY VIDEOS POSTED BY THE SUSPECT IN WHICH HE RANTS ABOUT MAYOR ERIC ADAMS AND HIS POLICIES.

WE WILL BRING YOU THE LATEST AS IT UNFOLDS.

> TONIGHT A LOOK AT MATTHE MAYOR'S POLICY THAT COULD BE THE KEY TO PREVENTING MORE SERIOUS CRIMES IN THE CITY.

'METROFOCUS' STARTS RIGHT NOW.

THIS IS 'METROFOCUS' WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

'METROFOCUS' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --

> GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO 'METROFOCUS.'

I'M JACK FORD.

AS NEW YORK CONTINUES TO COPE WITH A TROUBLING RISE IN VIOLENT CRIME, MAYOR ERIC ADAMS AND THE NYPD HAVE RECENTLY PLEDGED TO CRACK DOWN ON QUALITY OF LIFE OFFENSES IN AN EFFORT TO COMBAT WHAT MTHE MAYOR CALLED DISORDER IN OUR CITY.

CRITICS OF THIS FOCUS HAVE ACCUSED THE MAYOR OF A RETURN TO THE SO -CALLED POLICY OF POLICING.

ACCORDING TO OUR NEXT GUEST, A RETURN TO BROKEN WINDOWS IS EXACTLY WHAT NEW YORK NEEDS RIGHT NOW.

DON KETCHUM IS A NEW YORKER.

SAYS MANY IN HIS GENERATION TAKE FOR GRANTED THE SAFETY THAT NEW YORK HAS ENJOYED OVER THE PAST FEW DECADES.

IN A RECENTLY OPINION PIECE, HE WRITES THAT BY IGNORING LOW LEVEL OFFENSES, THE CITY HAS BEEN SENDING THE WRONG SIGNAL AND IS MAKING THE CITY LESS SAFE.

HE IS A FELLOW AT THE MANHATTAN INSTITUTE, WORKING ON STATE AND LOCAL POLICY AND LEGAL POLICY.

HE JOINS US NOW TO TALK ABOUT BROKEN WINDOWS AND TO RESPOND TO CRITICISM THAT THIS MAY WELL LEAD TO -- BACK TO THE CONTROVERSIAL TACTICS SUCH AS STOP AND FRISK.

WELCOME.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

FOR A LITTLE CONTEXT FOR OUR CONVERSATION, NYPD RELEASED STATISTICS SHOWING THAT THERE'S BEEN SOMETHING LIKE A 36% INCREASE IN SERIOUS CRIMES OVER THIS PERIOD OF TIME LAST YEAR.

IT GIVES US A SENSE OF WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

WITH THAT AS A BACKGROUND -- I USE THE TERM HERE BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING.

EXPLAIN TO US GENERALLY WHAT DOES THE TERM MEAN?

IT COMES FROM A 1982 ARTICLE IN THE 'ATLANTIC.'

IN THAT ARTICLE, THEY LAY OUT A THEORY OF BOTH HOW HUMAN BEINGS RESPOND TO THEIR ENVIRONMENT, HOW THEY TAKE CUES FROM THEIR ENVIRONMENT AS SIGNALS.

THEY ALSO DISCUSS THE ROLE OF THE POLICE IN MAINTAINING PUBLIC ORDER.

TO START WITH HOW HUMAN BEINGS ADAPT TO THEIR ENVIRONMENT, LET ME ILLUSTRATE THIS WITH AN EXAMPLE.

IMAGINE YOU ARE IN THE READING ROOM OF THE NEW YORK CITY LIBRARY.

THAT'S AN ORDINARILY ENVIRONMENT.

THERE ARE PEOPLE AROUND.

IT IS ONE IN WHICH YOU WOULD NOT THINK TO CAUSE A DISTURBANCE BECAUSE IT'S -- YOU FEEL THAT IT IS WELL MAINTAINED AND CARED FOR.

NOW CONSIDER AN ALTERNATIVE.

YOU ARE IN A GRAFFITI-SPRAWLED SUBWAY, FROM ONE PART OF THE CAR TO THE OTHER, AS FAR AS THE EYE CAN SEE, THERE'S GRAFFITI.

THAT SIGNALS IN THE MIND OF THE AUTHORS THAT THIS IS AN ENVIRONMENT IN DISORDER.

IT'S AN ENVIRONMENT THAT PEOPLE DO NOT CARE ABOUT.

BECAUSE THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT THIS ENVIRONMENT, IT CERTAINS AS -- IT SERVES AS AN INVITATION TO CONTRIBUTE TO GREATER DISORDER.

THAT PERCOLATES UP IN SOCIETY FROM SMALL ACTS OF VANDALISM LIKE GRAFFITI AND LOITERING AND LOUD PARTIES AND THE LIKE TO EVER GREATER ACTS OF PUBLIC -- NUISANCES AND VIOLENT CRIME.

BY ALLOWING THE POLICE TO PREVENT CRIME AND DISORDER, NOT MERELY RESPOND TO SERIOUS CRIME, THE POLICE CAN HELP ESTABLISH THE SOCIAL NORMS NECESSARY FOR THE COMMUNITY TO HELP POLICE ITSELF.

THE POLICE ARE NOT DOING THE JOB ON THEIR OWN.

THEY ARE THERE ON THE STREET, WALKING BEATS, IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN PUBLIC ORDER AND TO PREVENT FURTHER CRIME AND DISORDER.

LET'S LOOK BACK A LITTLE BIT AND GIVE US A LITTLE HISTORY LESSON HERE.

WE KNOW THAT NOT THAT LONG AGO, THERE WAS A PULLBACK, IF YOU WOULD, FROM THE NOTION OF BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING.

WHAT WAS THE RATIONALE?

THEN I'M GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR PIECE AND WHY YOU THINK WE SHOULD GO BACK TO IT?

WHAT WAS THE RATIONALE FOR PULLING BACK?

THE CONTROVERSIAL ASPECT OF BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING MIGHT NOT EVEN BE A RELEVANT ASPECT.

STOP AND FRISK WAS TAKEN TO EXCESS IN THE LATTER PART OF THE BLOOMBERG ADMINISTRATION FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS.

YOU SAW THE DATA SHOWED THAT STOP AND FRISK WERE GOING UP AND CRIME AND DISORDER WAS GOING DOWN.

THE LOGICAL CONCLUSION TO THAT IS WE OUGHT TO KEEP STOPPING AND FRISKING.

IF WE LOOK AT THE RATES OF CRIME AND WHERE CRIME HAPPENS, IT HAPPENS DISPROPORTIONALLY IN CERTAIN PLACES AND AMONG CERTAIN COMMUNITIES.

IT'S JUST A SOBERING AND SAD REALITY.

SO CRIME IS QUITE CONCENTRATED AMONG PERSONS AND PARTICULAR NEIGHBORHOODS.

THE POLICE, RIGHTLY SO IN MY MIND, GO INTO THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS TO MAINTAIN ORDER AND TO PREVENT MORE SERIOUS CRIMES FROM HAPPENING.

BECAUSE OF THE COMPOSITION OF THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS, IT MEANS THAT YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE SOME DISPROPORTIONATE ASPECT OF WHAT GETS STOPPED, WHO GETS FRISKED.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY DISPROPORTIONATE?

THE RACIAL BALANCE OF THOSE WHO ARE STOPPED AND FRISKED IS NOT GOING TO NECESSARILY REPRESENT THE OVERALL PROPORTION OF DEMOGRAPHIC BREAKDOWN IN THE CITY.

IT'S PRECISELY BECAUSE OF THIS ISSUE OF CONCENTRATED CRIME IN CERTAIN COMMUNITIES AND IN PARTICULAR IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR AND IN LOW INCOME COMMUNITIES.

LET ME BE CLEAR.

BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING IS NOT ZERO TOLERANCE POLICING.

I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM?

BROKEN WINDOW POLICING IS A COMMUNITY ORIENTED APPROACH.

IT NECESSARILY DEPENDS ON COPS AND THE PUBLIC WORKING IN TANDEM IN A PARTNERSHIP TO MAINTAIN ORDER BASED ON THE NORMS SET BY THAT COMMUNITY.

ZERO TOLERANCE POLICING IS IN EFFECT AN IMPOSITION OF OTHER NORMS SET BY THE LEGAL SYSTEM TO ESSENTIALLY ENFORCE THE LAW AS WRITTEN IN EVERY INSTANCE.

ZERO TOLERANCE IS NOT NECESSARILY STRIVING TO REFORM SOCIAL NORMS AND TO GET PEOPLE BACK ON TRACK AND TO HAVE BETTER LAB IT HABITS.

BROKEN WINDOWS DOES THAT.

ZERO TOLERANCE IS MORE ABOUT A LAW ENFORCEMENT APPROACH THAT DOESN'T HAVE THAT VERY CAREFUL SOCIAL ELEMENT TO IT.

SO WE OUGHT NOT TO GET THE TWO CONFUSED.

I THINK MAYOR ADAMS IS GOING TO KEEP THAT IN MIND AS HE IMPLEMENTS THIS NEW NYPD INITIATIVE.

WE WILL TALK ABOUT THAT IN A FEW MOMENTS.

LET ME COME BACK TO -- I MENTIONED IN THE INTRODUCTION, YOUR OPINION PIECE YOU DID.

GIVE US THE ESSENCE OF WHAT YOU HAD TO SAY THERE AND WHY YOU BELIEVE NOW THAT WHAT YOU DESCRIBED TO US, IN TERMS OF BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING, WHICH INVOLVES THE COLLABORATION BETWEEN THE POLICE AND COMMUNITIES, WHY YOU BELIEVE THAT IT ESSENTIAL FOR US RIGHT NOW.

WELL, YOU SAID IT IN THE INTRO.

CRIME IS UP IN NEW YORK CITY.

IT'S UP ABOUT 40%. PEOPLE KNOW THAT.

A MANHATTAN INSTITUTE POLL DONE LAST WEEK SAID THAT 92% OF PARTICIPANTS THOUGHT THAT CRIME WAS A BIG PROBLEM IN THE CITY.

92%. I DON'T THINK YOU CAN GET THAT KIND OF UNANIMITY ON ANYTHING.

AND YET, IT IS REALLY WIDESPREAD.

57% OF RESPONDENTS DID NOT FEEL SAFE IN THE SUBWAYS.

THAT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUE IN GETTING NEW YORK CITY BACK ON ITS FEET POST PANDEMIC.

THE LONG AND SHORT OF IT IS THAT NEW YORK CITY'S RECOVERY DEPENDS ON CURBING CRIME AND DISORDER.

IF WE DON'T GET A GRIP ON IT NOW, IT'S GOING TO BECOME EVER MORE DIFFICULT TO DO SO IN THE FUTURE.

WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO RESORT TO MORE HEAVY HANDED POLICING TACTICS IN ORDER TO GET CRIME AND DISORDER UNDER CONTROL.

WE WANT TO ENGAGE THE COMMUNITY IN APPROPRIATE AND CULTURALLY SENSITIVE WAYS.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, CITIES ARE FRAGILE THINGS.

IT TAKES ALL OF US PARTICIPATING AS A COMMUNITY TO BE VIGILANT AND TO BE AWARE OF OUR SURROUNDINGS AND TO THINK OF THE POLICE AS PARTNERS IN MAINTAINING THAT ORDER THAT EVERYBODY HOLDS SO SACRED.

I DON'T CARE WHAT BACKGROUND YOU COME FROM.

YOU CARE ABOUT MAINTAINING SAFE, CLEAN AND ORDINARILY STREETS.

YOU CARE ABOUT THAT BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO WORRY THAT SENDING YOUR KIDS TO SCHOOL IN THE MORNING WILL EXPOSE THEM TO CRIME, VIOLENT CRIME.

BUT YOU DON'T ALSO WANT TO EXPOSE YOUR CHILDREN TO OPEN AIR DRUG USE, TO PUBLIC DRINK AND PUBLIC ACTS OF DISORDER.

EVERY NEW YORKER HAS A RIGHT TO LIVE IN A COMMUNITY THAT'S ORDINARILY AND PEACEFUL.

AND WE SHOULD GIVE THE BENEFITS OF ORDER, STABILITY, TRANQUILITY AND BEAUTY TO ALL NEW YORKERS.

YOU MADE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN WHAT YOU VIEW IN TERMS OF BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING AND ZERO TOLERANCE POLICING.

YOU TALKED ABOUT IN THE PAST THE STOP AND FRISK POLICY.

AGAIN, THE POLICE DEPARTMENT REFERRED TO IT AS STOP, ASK AND FRISK.

BUT IT WAS WHAT IT WAS.

IN YOUR VISION AND THE IDEA YOU HAVE HERE OF BRINGING BACK THE BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING, WOULD THE STOP, ASK AND FRISK POLICY BE AN INTERGRAL PART OF THAT, O CAN YOU HAVE IT WITHOUT THAT?

YOU CAN SPLIT IT AND STOP AND ASK WITHOUT THE FRISK.

CERTAIN STOPS WERE DONE IN THAT WAY.

IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE DISCRETION THAT POLICE OFFICERS HAVE AND THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF EACH PARTICULAR CASE.

A LOT OF THIS IS GOING TO COME DOWN TO OFFICER TRAINING, GREATER CULTURAL SENSITIVITY AMONG OFFICERS, OFFICERS THAT COME FROM THE COMMUNITIES IN WHICH THEY POLICE AND HAVING MORE MINORITY OFFICERS AND THAT KIND OF MORE BALANCED RACIAL COMPOSITION AMONG OFFICERS.

BUT ESSENTIALLY, LOW LEVEL INTERVENTIONS LIKE STOPPING AND ASKING A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS CAN OFTEN TIMES HELP WOULD-BE PERPETRATORS TO THINK TWICE ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE ABOUT TO DO.

THEY WILL KNOW THAT AN OFFICER IS WATCHING.

WE WILL KNOW PEOPLE ARE VIGILANT.

IT DOES TAKE A CRITICAL MASS OF EYES ON THE STREET TO MAINTAIN THE SENSE OF PUBLIC ORDER SO THAT PEOPLE DON'T FEEL THAT THEY ARE GOING TO ACT WITH IMMUNITY, WHE WHETHER THAT'S IN PUBLIC DISORDER PUBLIC LVIOLENCE.

I DON'T THINK STOP AND FRISK IS NECESSARILY A BAD POLICY.

IT CAN BE USED APPROPRIATELY AND IN VERY PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE THE OFFICER HAS A REASONABLE SUSPICION THAT SOMEONE IS ABOUT TO COMMIT A CRIME.

THAT'S THE CASE LAW FROM THE 1968 CASE.

THE GOVERNING CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PRINCIPLE.

OFFICERS OUGHT TO BE BETTER TRAINED IN LOOKING OUT FOR SIGNS OF REASONABLE SUSPICION.

AND THAT MEANS THAT THEY CAN STOP AND FRISK IN A MORE TARGETED AND MORE PROACTIVE WAY.

BUT ALSO IN A MORE CULTURALLY SENSITIVE WAY.

BUT WE SHOULD ALSO JUST RECOGNIZE THAT STOPPING AND ASKING CAN OFTEN BE EFFECTIVE.

THAT IS MUCH LESS HANDS OFF AND THAT CAN HELP BUILD TRUST.

BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN GO TO THEIR LOCAL OFFICERS AND FEEL LIKE THEY CAN DIVULGE INFORMATION ABOUT INCIDENTS THAT ARE ABOUT TO UNFURL.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THOSE WHO ARE RELUCTANT FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS?

I'M SURE SOME PEOPLE WILL ASSOCIATE -- YOU HAVE MADE THE DISTINCTION, BUT I'M SURE THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT WILL ASSOCIATION THE NOTION OF BROKEN WINDOW WITH ZERO TOLERANCE, PEOPLE THAT ASSOCIATE IT WITH THE CONCEPT OF STOP AND FRISK.

I AM SURE, AGAIN, GIVEN OUR TIME AND PLACE PEOPLE HAVE THESE TROUBLING, DIFFICULT IMAGES OF GEORGE FLOYD, OF OTHER SCENARIOS WHERE POLICE OFFICERS ARE ENGAGING IN INAPPROPRIATE CONDUCT.

LET'S SAY THIS.

I'VE SAID THIS BEFORE.

WE GOT A LOT OF GUESTS SAY THIS.

WE DON'T WANT TO INDICT ALL POLICE OFFICERS.

I'VE BEEN A PROS KECUTOR AND A DEFENSE ATTORNEY.

THE VAST MAJORITY POLICE OFFICERS ARE GOOD, HONEST, HARD WORKING.

THE PROBLEM IS THOSE WHO ARE NOT.

THAT'S THE SAME WITH ANY PROFESSION.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE LISTENING TO OUR CONVERSATION BUT SAYING, LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO GEORGE FLOYD, LOOK WHAT HAPPENED IN THESE OTHER SCENARIOS.

HOW CAN WE BE SURE THAT BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING DOESN'T GET US BACK TO THAT?

WHAT'S THE ANSWER?

WELL, YOU MIGHT APPLY BROKEN WIN DOPEDOWS TO THE POLICE AS W.

MANY TIMES THERE ARE OFFICERS THAT HAVE HISTORIES OF VIOLENT INTERACTIONS.

THEY HAVE CRIMINAL -- THEY HAVE CIVIL COMPLAINTS FILED AGAINST THEM.

MANY TIMES THOSE OFFICERS COULD BE TARGETED FOR GREATER TRAINING, FOR REMEDIATION, FOR ESSENTIALLY TAKING OFF TO THE SIDE AND SAYING, WELL, WHAT'S THE ISSUE?

THAT COULD BE DONE THROUGH THE DISCIPLINARY PROCESS AS WELL.

WE CAN HAVE A GREATER POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY AND GREATER PUBLIC SAFETY.

LIKE YOU SAY, JACK, THE VAST MAJORITY OF POLICE OFFICERS ARE DOING A FINE JOB.

THEY TRY TO DO A DANGEROUS JOB IN THE BEST WAY THEY KNOW HOW.

SENSITIVE TO THE NEEDS OF THE COMMUNITIES IN WHICH THEY PATROL.

NONETHELESS, IT'S A DANGEROUS JOB.

IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT WHEN ADRENALINE IS PUMPING, THINGS CAN GET OUT OF HAND.

BETTER TRAINING CAN HELP CONTROL FOR SOME OF THIS ALSO.

IN 2015, THE NYPD LAUNCHED A NEW TRAINING INITIATIVE AFTER IT LAUNCHED THE COLLEGE POINT POLICE ACADEMY.

OFFICERS ARE NOW RECEIVING MORE SITUATIONAL TRAINING.

THEY ARE RECEIVING MORE CULTURALLY SENSITIVE TRAINING.

THEY ARE TRYING TO DEESCALATE.

THEY ARE TRYING TO USE FORCE ONLY WHERE APPROPRIATE, AND THEN EVEN IN THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES IN A MINIMAL AND LESS INVASIVE WAY.

THE NUMBER OF POLICE FIREARM DISTANCES HAS GONE DOWN PRECIPITOUSLY SINCE THE 1990s.

AS HAS CRIME.

SO WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE CAN HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

WE CAN HAVE FEWER VIOLENT INTERACTIONS BETWEEN POLICE AND PUBLIC, AND WE CAN ALSO HAVE GREATER PUBLIC SAFETY.

AGAIN, IT DOES COME DOWN TO THIS IDEA OF THE POLICE ACTING AS COLLABORATORS IN THE COMMON GOOD OF THEIR COMMUNITIES.

I THINK THAT CERTAINLY WE CAN REFORM THE POLICE IN MEANINGFUL WAYS AND ALLOW FOR GREATER ACCOUNTABILITY.

ONE OTHER WAY WE CAN DO THAT IS -- WE ALREADY HAVE IT.

GREATER USE OF BODYCAMS, SMARTPHONES.

POLICE KNOW THEY ARE BEING WATCHED.

I THINK THAT HELPS TO ESTABLISH A CULTURE OF ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE SAME WAY THAT BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING HELPS TO ESTABLISH COMMUNITIES MARKED BY ORDER.

ONCE AGAIN, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING CONCEPT, AN OPINION PIECE HE RECENTLY HAD IN 'THE DAILY NEWS.'

HE IS WORKING ON STATE AND LOCAL POLICY AND LEGAL POLICY.

LET'S COME BACK TO SOMETHING WE TOUCHED ON BEFORE.

THAT IS, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING.

THE IDEA BEHIND HOW IT DOES IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF LIFE.

WE ARE, AS YOU KNOW, A DATA DRIVEN SOCIETY WHEN WE ARE LOOKING TO MAKE POLICY.

IS THERE ANY DATA THAT WOULD HELP TO SUPPORT THE POSITION THAT YOU HAVE TAKEN THAT BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING DOES, INDEED, HAVE AN IMPACT ON BRINGING CRIME DOWN?

THIS IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS WHERE IT DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ASK.

THE EVIDENCE SEEMS TO BE MIXED.

THERE ARE CERTAINLY STUDIES DONE AT RUTGERS UNIVERSITY THAT HAVE SHOWN BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING IS AT LEAST MODERATELY EFFECTIVE AT REDUCING CRIME.

BUT I THINK IT'S WORTH RECOGNIZING THAT REDUCING DISORDER IS GOOD IN ITSELF.

IT'S NOT ONLY GOOD IN SO FAR AS IT HELPS TO REDUCE VIOLENT CRIME.

PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN DISORDERLY COMMUNITIES.

THAT CUTS ACROSS EVERY BACKGROUND, EVERY ETHNICITY, ALL SOCIOECONOMIC STATUSES.

SO THE IDEA THAT WE'RE GOING TO MEASURE CLAMPING DOWN ON DISORDER ONLY INSOFAR AS IT HELPS TO REDUCE VIOLENT CRIME, I THINK MISSES SOME OF THE POINT THERE.

THE LONG AND SHORT OF THAT IS, THE RESULTS TEND TO BE MIXED.

BUT THERE ARE STUDIES THAT HAVE BEEN DONE THAT DO SUPPORT THE THEORY BEHIND BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING.

ONE OF THE SUGGESTIONS WE HAVE SEEN, ESPECIALLY RECENTLY, IS THAT MAYBE WE ASK THE POLICE TO DO TOO MUCH.

THAT MAYBE WE ARE ASKING THEM TO RESPOND IN SCENARIOS WHEN WHATEVER TRAINING THEY HAVE HAD DOESN'T REALLY PREPARE THEM TO RESPOND TO THAT.

FOR INSTANCE, WE HAVE SEEN SUGGESTIONS THAT WHEN POLICE ARE RESPONDING TO A 911 CALL ABOUT A PERSON WHO IS CLEARLY HAVING MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES THAT ARE PLAYING OUT, ARE POLICE THE RIGHT ONES TO BE RESPONDING?

I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, HOW WOULD WE INCORPORATE THE NOTION THAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING HERE OF BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING WITH AN IDEA THAT MAYBE THERE ARE OTHERS BETTER SUITED TO RESPOND TO SCENARIOS WHERE NOW WE ARE ASKING POLICE TO RESPOND?

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

YEAH.

WE COULD HAVE THAT, TOO.

THE NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT'S IMPROVED TRAINING PROTOCOLS INCLUDES GREATER SENSITIVITY TO MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AND TRIES TO UNDERSTAND THE SORT OF CIRCUMSTANCES THAT PEOPLE FIND THEMSELVES IN.

MANY TIMES APPREHENDING SOMEBODY, FINDING SOMEBODY IN THE SUBWAY SLEEPING AND TRYING TO DIRECT THEM TO RECEIVE BETTER TREATMENT, TO RECEIVE MAYBE A NIGHT AT THE SHELTER, OFTEN CAN HELP THEM.

THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO HELP THOSE WHO ARE IN, LET'S SAY, DIRE CIRCUMSTANCES, WITHOUT RESORTING TO CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

IN FACT, WE OUGHT TO BE USING THE POLICE TO HELP THOSE PEOPLE FIND THE TREATMENT AND CARE THAT THEY DESERVE.

NEW YORK CITY HAS AN EXTENSIVE MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM.

THE POLICE CAN OFTEN BE THE ONES TO IDENTIFY THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO WOULD BE SUITED FOR ADDITIONAL TREATMENT AND CARE.

THE IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT LETTING THOSE WITH SEVERE MENTAL ILLNESS ROAM THE STREETS AND RIDE THE SUBWAY AND ACT WITH IMPUNITY PUTS EVERYONE AT GREAT DISCOMFORT.

IF YOU RIDE THE SUBWAY AND YOU SEE A DISORDERLY PERSON A LOUD PERSON, YOU KNOW THAT PERSON IS NOT NECESSARILY DANGEROUS.

WE HAVE RIDDEN THE SUBWAY WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN UNPLEASANT BUT NOT NECESSARILY DANGEROUS.

BUT OUR MINDWANDERS.

WE FEEL A FEAR THAT IF THE PERSON IS WILLING TO BREAK THAT SOCIAL NORM, WHAT ELSE IS THE PERSON WILLING TO DO?

WHAT ELSE IS HE CAPABLE OF DOING IF HE IS ABLE TO JUST FLOUT OUR SOCIAL CUSTOMS AND CONVENTIONS?

BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING IS TRYING TO LOOK AT THOSE SCENARIOS, GET THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CAUSING THEM INTO MORE APPROPRIATE CIRCUMSTANCES FOR THEM AND TO MAKE THE CITY A MORE PEACEABLE PLACE.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE -- AGAIN, THE IDEA OF ENGAGING IN A BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING POLICY AND LOOK THROUGH THE OBSTACLES THAT MIGHT BE THERE -- WE TALKED ABOUT SOME OF THEM -- ONE OF THEM -- ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT'S RAISED IS THE NEW MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY CAME OUT EARLY ON AND ESSENTIALLY SAID, WE'RE GOING TO FOCUS ON SERIOUS CRIMES, BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE SO FOCUSED ON LESSER THINGS.

THAT'S A GENERALIZATION OF WHAT HE SAID, OBVIOUSLY.

BUT ASSUMING THAT'S THE STANCE OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY, WHO WOULD THEN HANDLE PROSECUTIONS OF CONDUCT THAT THE POLICE WOULD BE INVOLVED IN, HOW WOULD THAT IMPACT THE NOTION OF BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING?

IT ALMOST SOUNDS LIKE THE TWO OF THEM WOULD JUST BE IN CONFLICT.

WELL, IN FACT, THEY ARE.

IN FACT, THE 1982 ARTICLE WAS DIRECTLY IN RESPONSE TO THIS REACTIVE APPROACH THAT THOUGHT OF POLICING AS TRYING TO RESPOND TO VIOLENT CRIME.

IN A SENSE, I'M TRYING TO MAKE THE CASE THAT WHAT HAS WORKED IN THE PAST IS GOING TO WORK IN THE FUTURE, BUT LET'S NOT UPSET THE APPLE CART.

LET'S NOT UNDO ALL THE PROGRESS THAT WE HAVE MADE.

THE D.A.'S OFFICE HAS OPTED NOT TO PROSECUTE LOW LEVEL OFFENSES LIKE FARE EVASION, PUBLIC DRUNKENNESS OR PROSTITUTION, GOING BACK SEVERAL YEARS NOW.

HIS PREDECESSOR OPTED NOT TO PROSECUTE THOSE OFFENSES.

THE D.A. CURRENTLY HAS CONTINUED SOME OF THOSE POLICIES.

THEN OTHER POLICIES HE HAS DECIDED TO REDUCE THE CHARGE IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES AND REALLY MAKE IT SUCH THAT SOME OFFENSES WILL NOT BE CHARGED AT ALL, EVEN IF YOU MIGHT CONSIDER THEM RATHER SERIOUS.

PROPERTY OFFENSES AND THAT KIND OF THING.

YES, THEY ARE INTENTIONED.

THE POLICE CAN ONLY DO SO MUCH.

THEN THEY HAVE TO HAND OVER THE REST OF THE PROCESS TO THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

MANY TIMES WHEN THOSE APPREHENDED FOR LOW LEVEL OFFENSES GET -- WE CHECK OUT THEIR SHEETS, THEY ARE WANTED FOR OTHER OFFENSES.

THEY HAVE ARREST WARRANTS, LONG CRIMINAL RECORDS.

THE EFFECT OF THE PROGRESSIVE PROSECUTION MOVEMENT AND THE EFFECT OF INITIATIVES LIKE BAIL REFORM IS ESSENTIALLY TO REDUCE THE ACCOUNTABILITY OF THESE PEOPLE AND TO MAKE IT HARDER FOR THE SYSTEM TO INCAPACITATE THOSE WITH DANGEROUS PROCLIVITIES.

NEW YORK STATE IS THE ONLY STATE THAT DOES NOT GIVE JUDGE DISCRETION TO ASSESS A PRE-TRIAL DEFENDANT'S DANGEROUSNESS IN THE SETTING OF BAIL.

THAT, TO ME, SEEMS LIKE IT WILL COME AT A COST TO PUBLIC SAFETY.

IN FACT, MANY PEOPLE WITH LONG WRAP SHEETS ARE PUT BACK ON THE STREETS WHETHER THROUGH PROGRESSIVE PROSECUTION OR THROUGH THIS BAIL REFORM MEASURE THAT IS NOW ACTUALLY BEING TINKERED WITH.

WE REALLY HAVE REAPED WHAT WE HAVE SOWN, IN A SENSE.

ALWAYS TO BE COGNIZANT OF CORRELATION AND CAUSATION.

IF WE ALLOW MORE PEOPLE WITH DANGEROUS PROCLIVITIES BACK ON THE STREET, WE'RE GOING TO WIND UP WITH AN INCREASE IN CRIME.

THAT'S A COMMON SENSE RESULT THAT NEW YORKERS ARE EXPERIENCING EVERY DAY.

IT HAS BEEN A VERY THOUGHTFUL CONVERSATION.

WE APPRECIATE YOU SPENDING TIME WITH US.

CLEARLY, WE KNOW THAT MAYOR ADAMS IS LOOKING AT ALL OF THESE ISSUES IN AN EFFORT TO BRING THAT LEVEL DOWN.

BECAUSE AS WE TALKED ABOUT, IT HAS BECOME FRIGHTENINGLY HIGH.

'METROFOCUS' IS MADE POSSIBLE BYTHAT NEW YORKERS ARE HAS BECOME FRIGHTENINGLY HIGH.

BY --BY --

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