MetroFocus: September 21, 2021

EXPLORING HATE: “HOME, LAND, SECURITY,” INSIDE THE PLOT TO BLOW UP THE LONG ISLAND RAILROAD

A study conducted earlier this year found the number of domestic terror plots and attacks are at the highest levels in decades. America is still struggling to make sense of why people turn to extremism and how to deradicalize them. As part of our Exploring Hate initiative examining the intersection of antisemitism, racism and extremism in America, we’re taking a look at domestic terrorism from the deadly insurrection at the Capitol to the New Yorker who plotted with Al Qaeda to blow up the Long Island Railroad.

Tonight we talk with a woman who interviewed that New Yorker and has spent the past several years investigating what’s driving this extremism around the world- author and former Pulitzer Prize finalist Carla Power. She also met with leaders of the rehabilitation movement as they worked the frontlines and her findings are now the foundation of the new book: “Home, Land, Security: Deradicalization and the Journey Back From Extremism.”  

TRANSCRIPT

> THIS IS 'METROFOCUS' WITH JACK FORD AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

'METROFOCUS' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --

> GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO 'METROFOCUS.'

MONTHS AFTER THE ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL, WE'RE STILL TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF WHY PEOPLE TURN TO EXTREMISM AND HOW WE CAN DE-RADICALIZE THEM.

A STUDY FOUND THAT THE NUMBER OF DOE DOMESTIC TERROR ATTACKS ARE AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL IN DECADES.

OUR GUEST HAS SPENT SEVERAL YEARS INVESTIGATING WHAT'S DRIVING THE EXTREMISM.

ALONG HER JOURNEY, SHE INTERVIEWED AMONG SO MANY OTHERS A NEW YORKER, WHO PLOTTED WITH AL QAEDA TO BLOW UP THE LONG ISLAND RAILROAD.

THEY ALSO MET WITH 4RLEADERS OF THE REHADBILITATION MOVEMENTS.

HER FINDINGS ARE PART OF A BOOK.

FOR MORE ON WHAT SHE'S UNCOVERED, CARLA POWER JOINS US AS PART OF OUR EXPLORING HATE INITIATIVE, EXAMINING THE INTERSECTION OF ANTI-SEMITISM AND EXTREMISM IN AMERICA.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

LET ME START BY SAYING THIS IS A MARVELLOUS BOOK, IT'S COMPELLING, IT'S TROUBLING.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT, THE FIRST QUESTION THAT COMES TO MIND, AS WITH MOST AUTHORS, IS WHY?

WHAT DROVE YOU TO SAY THIS IS THE BOOK I WANT TO DO AND NOW IS THE TIME TO DO IT?

IN YOUR INTRODUCTION, YOU SPENT A LOT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT THAT.

GIVE US A SENSE OF WHAT PROMPTED YOU TO GO ON THIS JOURNEY THAT RESULTED IN THIS BOOK.

WELL, I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN VERY INTER INTERESTED IN WRITING ABOUT MUSLIM SOCIETY.

MY FIRST BOOK HAD BEEN ABOUT READING THE KORAN WITH AN ISLAMIC SCHOLAR.

WHAT I WANTED TO EXPLORE IS HOW DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU FIND EMPATHY AND CONNECTION WITH SOMEBODY WHOSE WORLD VIEWS MIGHT BE VERY DIFFERENT FROM YOUR OWN?

I FOUND A GREAT DEAL OF COMMON GROUND WITH THIS VERY TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE SHEIKH.

HE IS MUSLIM.

I'M JEWISH QUAKER SECULAR.

HE HAD A VERY TRADITIONAL UPBRINGING.

I DIDN'T.

I'M AMERICAN.

HE IS INDIAN.

AFTERWARDS, I THOUGHT ABOUT THIS.

I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, IT WAS RELATIVELY EASY TO FIND COMMON GROUND WITH SOMEBODY WHO WAS BOOKISH AND OPEN AND AN ACADEMIC.

ALL ALONG, WHEN I HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT ISLAM, WHEN PEOPLE SAY, YEAH, BUT WHAT ABOUT TERRORISM, WHAT ABOUT JIHADISM?

AND I WOULD BAT IT ASIDE.

IT'S A TINY MINORITY, WHICH OF COURSE, IT IS.

ISLAM DOESN'T -- IT'S NOT GROUNDED IN ISLAM.

BUT I WOULD KIND OF IGNORE IT.

AND I WOULD KIND OF SAY, I'M NOT GOING TO DEAL WITH THAT.

SUDDENLY I THOUGHT, WAIT, I REALLY HAVE TO TURN AND FACE THIS.

NOT BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT'S GROUNDED IN ISLAM, PER SE, ANY MORE THAN ANY OTHER GROUP HAS POLITICAL VIOLENCE, AND YOU CAN READ ANY TEXT OR ANY SCRIPTURE TO FIND POLITICAL VIOLENCE THERE, BUT BECAUSE I REALLY NEEDED TO SEE WHETHER I COULD FIND COMMON GROUND WITH PEOPLE WHO HAD REALLY SORT OF CROSSED A LINE IN TERMS OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

IT SEEMED THE TIME, BECAUSE I -- THIS WAS RIGHT AFTER THE ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP.

AND I COULD FEEL MY OWN COUNTRY BECOMING RADICALIZED.

I COULD FEEL MYSELF BECOMING RADICALIZED.

IN THE SENSE THAT I WAS FEELING LESS WILLING TO LISTEN TO OTHER PEOPLE'S WORLD VIEWS.

AND HAD A LOT OF ANGER AND A LOT OF INTOLERANCE IN SOME WAYS.

SO THIS SEEMED THE BOOK TO WRITE AT THE TIME.

AS I MENTIONED IN THE INTRODUCTION, YOU TALKED SO SUCH A WIDE ARRAY OF PEOPLE.

AND YOU START THE BOOK WITH CONVERSATIONS WITH SEVERAL WOMEN, MOTHERS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE TURNED TO EXTREMISM.

WHY DID YOU FEEL THAT THAT WAS THE RIGHT WAY TO BEGIN THIS CONVERSATION IN THIS BOOK?

WELL, BECAUSE MONSTERS GENERALLY DON'T HAVE MOTHERS.

I WAS STARTING FROM THE STANDPOINT -- I WANTED TO CHIP AWAY AT THIS VERY FLAT, UN UN-NUANCED NOTION OF WHAT THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST WAS.

THE MUGSHOTS WE SEE IN THE HEADLINES DON'T REPRESENT THIS.

I WANTED TO LOOK AT IT CLOSELY.

THERE IS NOTHING TO HUMANIZE SOMEONE MORE THAN A PARENT AND A MOTHER.

IT WAS PARTICULARLY IN EUROPE AND NORTH AMERICA WHERE I STARTED MY JOURNEY, IT WAS THE MOTHERS WHO WERE SPEAKING OUT.

IT WASN'T THE FATHERS.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT WAS?

I THINK -- I THINK WHEN I TALKED TO MOTHERS, THEY SAID, MY HUSBAND JUST WANTS TO FORGET.

HE WANTS TO -- NOT TO FORGET BUT TO CRAWL INTO HIS OWN SHELL.

BUT THE MOTHERS WERE REALLY GALVANIZED TO REACH OUT TO EACH OTHER, TO NETWORK, TO TRY TO PREVENT OTHER MOTHERS HAVING THEIR CHILDREN GO OVERSEAS.

THEY WERE TRAINING AS COUNSELORS AND SO ON.

THEY WERE SPEAKING TO THE PRESS.

ON A VERY PRACTICAL LEVEL, I COULD GET TO THEM.

VERY FEW FATHERS WERE SPEAKING OPENLY TO THE PRESS AT THE TIME THAT I STARTED THIS BOOK.

AND I THINK MOTHERS WANTED TO BREAK THE SILENCE AROUND THE SHAME OF HAVING A CHILD WHO, IN THESE PARTICULAR CASES, WENT OFF TO JOIN THE ISLAMIC STATE.

WHEN YOU TALKED TO THE MOTHERS, WHAT WERE -- WERE YOU SURPRISED AT ALL BY THE ANSWERS THEY GAVE YOU AS TO WHY?

THE WHY QUESTION.

WHY WOULD YOUR SON DO THIS?

WHAT SORT OF RESPONSES DID YOU GET FROM THEM?

ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN, I WENT UP -- THE FIRST MOTHER I TALKED TO IN NORTH ENGLAND, I WAS EXPECTING -- I WAS LIKE, WHAT SORT OF KID COULD YOU POSSIBLY HAVE, THINKING THE PEOPLE WE SEE ON THE NEWS.

IT TURNS OUT THAT HER SON WAS ACTUALLY SORT OF ONE OF NATURE'S INNOCENCE IN HER TELLING OF IT.

I SHOULD ADD, YOU KNOW JOURNAL IS JOURNALISTICALLY, MOTHERS ARE NOT GOING TO SEE THEIR CHILDREN AS OTHERS WOULD SEE THEM.

THERE'S THAT GREAT QUOTE FROM AL CAPONE'S MOTHER ON HER DEATH BED WHEN SHE WAS LIKE, AL, HE IS A GOOD BOY, REALLY, SORT OF THING.

I DID HAVE TO BE -- I HAD TO USE MY JOURNALISTIC LENS.

IN HER TELLING, HE REALLY WAS QUITE INNOCENT.

THE FIRST THING I SAW WAS AROUND HER NECK WAS AN ETHICALLY SOURCED DIAMOND THAT HE HAD BOUGHT HER AS A PRESENT BEFORE HE LEFT FOR SYRIA.

HE WOULD COME IN AND KISS HER EVERY NIGHT.

HE WOULD CALL IF HE WAS TEN MINUTES LATE.

WHEN HE GOT OUT TO SYRIA, ONE OF THEIR PHONE CONVERSATIONS WAS HIM ASKING HER PERMISSION THAT HE COULD RIDE MISS COMMANDER'S MOTORBIKE, BECAUSE HE WAS NERVOUS THAT SHE WOULD NOT GIVE PERMISSION.

I GOTTA TELL YOU, AS I'M READING THIS, THE JUXTAPOSITION OF THE TWO JUST WAS PUZZLING.

AGAIN, SOMEBODY KISSIING HIS MOTHER GOOD NIGHT.

WE TEND TO THINK OF THEM AS MONSTERS.

AND YET THE DEPICTION FROM A MOTHER, THAT THIS -- THERE'S A DISCONNECT THERE.

I THINK THAT THAT IS -- COMES OUT IN SOME WAYS IN OUR FRAMING OF WHAT THE JIHAD TERRORIST IS FIGHTING FOR.

HE BECAME ENAMORED OF THE ISLAMIC STATE AND VERY UPSET OF SEEING IMAGES OF CHILDREN IN SYRIA BEING BOMBED.

WANTED TO GO OUT TO HELP THE KIDS AND REALLY FELT THAT THAT WAS IMPORTANT.

IT WASN'T -- AMERICANS FRAME IT AS THEY ALL HATE US.

WHY DO THEY HATE US?

AND SO ON.

INSTEAD -- IN OTHER PLACES, IT WAS A SENSE THAT PEOPLE WENT OUT TO WANT TO HELP AS ALMOST -- NOT NECESSARILY AS FIGHTERS.

ALTHOUGH, SOME OF THE PEOPLE REALLY WANTED TO FIGHT.

BUT THERE WAS A SENSE THAT THERE WAS A HUGH MANITARIAN CRISIS GO ON.

AND HE WANTED TO GO OUT AND HELP.

HE ENDED UP ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

AGAIN, SO MANY COMPELLING STORIES HERE.

I DO WANT TO GET TO, IN A MOMENT, TO WHY THEY HATE US.

BASED UPON THINGS WE ARE DOING, ESPECIALLY DRONES.

I WANT TO TOUCH BASE ON -- IN THE INTRODUCTION I MENTIONED THAT A YOUNG MAN FROM QUEENS AND DECIDE DECIDES HE WANTS TO GO OVER THERE AND IS OFFERING UP TO HIS COMMANDER OF THINGS TO DO.

HE COMES UP WITH THE IDEA OF BOMBING THE LONG ISLAND RAILROAD, PERHAPS IN A TUNNEL.

GI GIVE US A QUICK PICTURE OF WHO THIS YOUNG MAN WAS AND HOW THAT OCCURRED FOR HIM.

BRYANT NEIL WAS RAISED IN LONG ISLAND INITIALLY.

AFTER 9/11, SIGNED UP AND JOINED THE ARMY, JOINED THE U.S. ARMY IN A PATRIOTIC ENTHUSIASM.

HE LATER DROPPED OUT AND EMBRACED ISLAM.

WAS SORT OF BOUNCING AROUND IN VARIOUS JOBS.

AND DECIDED TO PUT HIS MONEY WHERE HIS MOUTH WAS.

HE WAS REALLY DISTURBED ABOUT OUR INVASIONS OF IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN AND DECIDED -- GOT HIMSELF TO PAKISTAN AND JOINED UP, FIRST ONE GROUP AND THEN ANOTHER GROUP, WHOSE NAME HE DIDN'T KNOW.

IT TURNED OUT TO BE AL QAEDA.

FOR A WHILE, I THINK THE FBI CALLED HIM THE FOREST GUMP OF JIHAD.

PARTLY, BECAUSE HE WAS THE EARLIEST AMERICAN RECRUIT.

HE WAS CERTAINLY, AS HE PUT IT -- THEY WERE USING ME LIKE A MASCOT.

SO I THINK HE GOT INTO HIGH LEVEL MEETINGS QUITE EASILY.

YEAH, AFTER WITNESSING A -- WELL, NOT WITNESSING A DRONE STRIKE, BUT AFTER VISITING AN ORPHANAGE IN PAKISTAN AND LATER AN AMERICAN DRONE STRIKE REPORTEDLY DESTROYED THAT ORPHANAGE -- I CAN'T CONFIRM THE ORPHANAGE WAS DESTROYED.

BRYANT BELIEVED IT.

HE GOT VERY ANGRY.

HE DECIDED TO TALK TO A COMMANDER AND STARTED SKETCHING OUT HOW TO BOMB THE LONG ISLAND RAILROAD.

HE HAD TAKEN MANY TIMES IN HIS LIFE.

HE DREW IN THE DIRT WHERE ALL THE TUNNELS CONVERGE.

THE COMMANDER SAID, THIS COULD REALLY HURT NEW YORK CITY'S ECONOMY.

THAT'S THE POWER OF SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

IT NEVER WENT FURTHER THAN THAT, BECAUSE HE WAS PICKED UP PRETTY SOON AFTERWARDS.

BROUGHT BACK TO THE STATES.

I THINK -- I WANT TO URGE PEOPLE FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS TO GET THIS BOOK AND READ IT.

BUT HIS STORY, WHAT HAPPENS AFTERWARDS -- HE FLIPS AND STARTS COOPERATING TO HIM AND WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM AFTER THIS IS EQUALLY COMPELLING FOR PEOPLE.

LET ME COME BACK TO THE DRONES THAT YOU MENTIONED, THE DRONE STRIKES.

YOU TALK IN THE BOOK ABOUT THE IDEA OF BLOW BACK.

WE HAVE HEARD THAT TALKED ABOUT, GOING BACK DECADES IN TERMS OF U.S. INVOLVEMENT ABROAD AND OUR CONDUCT AND ACTIONS AND THE REACTION TO THAT, THE BLOW BACK REACTION.

ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT IS THE IDEA OF THE USE OF DRONES.

I THINK THERE'S A LINE WHERE ESSENTIALLY IT TALKS ABOUT THE IDEA THAT RATHER THAN ERADICATING TERRORISTS, DRONES ARE IN SOME WAYS CREATING TERRORISTS.

TAL TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

WELL, I MEAN, I WAS INTERESTING IN DRONES INITIALLY AS A WRITER ALMOST BECAUSE THEY SEEM TO ME TO BE THIS METAPHOR FOR HOW WE WEREN'T CONNECTING WITH SITUATIONS ON THE GROUND.

THEY ARE PILOTED OUT FROM A DESERT OUTSIDE OF LAS VEGAS.

PEOPLE ARE VERY WELL TRAINED, BUT THEY ARE HOWEVER MANY THOUSAND MILES AWAY.

THEY REALLY -- YOU EITHER BOMB OR YOU GO HOME.

THERE'S THIS KIND OF BINARY SITUATION.

IT'S NOT ENGAGEMENT IN THE OLD SENSE OF THE TERM.

MANY, MANY PEOPLE HAVE -- INCLUDING BOTH HAWKISH FOLKS AND CONSERVATIVES HAVE POINTED OUT THAT THESE HAVE ACTUALLY -- YOU'VE GOT A DIPLOMAT IN YEMEN WHO RECKONED THAT WITH EVERY DRONE STRIKE IN YEMEN, YOU CREATED 50 TO 60 NEW MILITANTS, BECAUSE YOU HIT SOMEBODY.

EVEN IF YOU HIT YOUR TARGET, THERE WILL BE THEIR KINFOLK, FAMILY, TRIBE.

SUDDENLY, YOU'VE GOT A WHOLE BUNCH OF NEW PEOPLE WHO ARE SYMPATHETIC TO THE CAUSE.

SOMETHING LIKE WE SAW A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO AFTER WE WITHDREW FROM AFGHANISTAN WHERE A DRONE STRIKE KILLED I BELIEVE IT WAS TEN MEMBERS OF A FAMILY.

MOST OF THEM UNDER 18 YEARS OF AGE.

LITTLE KIDS.

WHAT DOES THAT DO FOR OUR REPUTATION ABROAD?

SO I WAS INTERESTED.

IN BRYANT'S CASE, OF COURSE, THE DRONE WAS WHAT MADE HIM AN EXAMPLE, I THOUGHT, BLOW BACK.

BECAUSE SUDDENLY THEN HE WAS PLANNING THIS REALLY DANGEROUS PLOT.

ONCE AGAIN, WE ARE TALKING WITH CARLA POWER,THE AUTHOR OF A BOOK.

PEOPLE THINK I'M SAYING HOMELAND SECURITY.

I'M NOT.

HOME L, LAND, SECURITY.

WHY BREAK UP THE WORDS?

IT'S MORE DIFFICULT TO SAY, I'VE GOT TO SAY.

I LOVED THE TITLE, BUT I HAVE NOT PRACTICED SAYING IT.

I COMMEND YOU.

I WANTED TO TAKE BACK THIS PHRASE THAT WE HAVE ALL LIVED WITH SINCE 9/11, SINCE SHORTLY AFTER 9/11.

WE ALL KNOW WHAT IT MEANS.

KIND OF IN THE INTEREST OF MAKING US THINK ABOUT THE ROOT CAUSES OF TERRORISM AND EXTREMISM, I WANTED TO BREAK IT UP.

HOME IS -- I WANTED TO START AT HOME AND THINK ABOUT THESE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO JOIN MILITANT GROUPS AND THINK ABOUT WHAT -- HOW THEY MIGHT BE PROPELLED BECAUSE OF HOME.

LAND IS ALSO REALLY IMPORTANT.

WHEN YOU STATISTICALLY AT WHY TERRORIST ATTACKS OCCUR, ROBERT PAPE HAS DONE SOME AMAZING WORK OUT OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO WHERE HE LOOKED AT SUICIDE BOMBERS BETWEEN 1980 AND 2005, I THINK.

HE FOUND THAT 95% OF TERROR -- OF SUICIDE BOMBINGS WERE THERE NOT BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE MUSLIM OR POOR, BECAUSE THEY WERE DRIVEN TO THIS OR PART OF AL QAEDA.

IT WAS BECAUSE THEY WERE LIVING IN LANDS THAT WERE OCCUPIED BY OTHERS.

LAND AND THAT BEING A REALLY IMPORTANT MOTIVATOR, WHETHER WHY YOU LAND IS TORN BY CIVIL WAR OR OCCUPATION, IS ANOTHER SORT OF PHRASE ONCE YOU START BREAKING IT UP.

SECURITY AT THE END OF THE BOOK.

I WANT US TO THINK ABOUT WHAT REAL SECURITY IS, WHAT SECURITY LOOKS LIKE AND HOW WE CAN GENUINELY THINK ABOUT NEW WAYS TO MAKE US SAFER WITHOUT RESORTING TO SOME OF THE SAME MISTAKES WE MADE POST 9/11.

I WANT TO GET IN A MOMENT TO WHAT YOU FOUND IN TERMS OF THE VARIOUS APPROACHES THAT OTHER COUNTRIES WERE TAKING, U.S. WERE TAKING TO THIS NOTION OF DE DE-RADICALIZATION.

THIS IS SOMETHING YOU TWEETED OUT.

YOU TALK ABOUT DOMESTIC TERRORISTS ARE TELLING YOU SOMETHING ABOUT THE STATE OF YOUR NATION.

YOU SAY, DON'T CONDONE, DON'T EXCUSE, DO WONDER WHY THEY DO WHAT THEY DO.

MY QUESTION TO YOU IS THEN, WHAT DO YOU THINK WE ARE SEEING HERE IN TERMS OF DMOMESTIC TERRORIST, WHITE NATIONALISTS?

WHAT ARE THEY SAYING ABOUT THE STATE OF OUR COUNTRY?

WELL, I MEAN, I THINK A RANGE OF THINGS.

I DON'T -- I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO -- THE FOLKS AT THE CAPITOL -- THERE WERE DIFFERENT GROUPS.

SOME HARD CORE, SOME PEOPLE WHO WERE ALONG FOR A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT REASONS.

I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS A BREAKDOWN OF AUTHORITY AND A BREAKDOWN OF OUR FAITH IN OUR INSTITUTIONS.

COUPLE THAT WITH THE INFORMATION SILOS WE HAVE ALL BEEN SUBJECTED TO BECAUSE OF I'LLALGORITHMS.

WE'RE NOT TRYING TO REACH ACROSS THE DIVIDE.

VERY CANNY POLITICAL AND OTHER KINDS OF LEADERS HAVE REALLY HELPED KIND OF STOKE HATRED, I THINK.

AND I ALSO THINK WE SHOULD LOOK TO THE BREAKDOWN OF JOBS AND SECURITY AND OF COMMUNITY.

I THINK THERE'S A WHOLE HOST OF THINGS THAT THE RISE OF EXTREMISM IN OUR COUNTRY ARE POINTING TO.

I THINK IT'S GOING TO UNFOLD OVER THE NEXT -- SADLY, ITS EARLY DAYS YET.

LET ME ASK YOU TO TOUCH BASE -- WE HAVE FIVE MINUTES LEFT IN THE CONVERSATION HERE.

YOU SPEND A GOOD DEAL OF TIME IN THE BOOK -- IT'S VERY COMPELLING.

AND THOUGHT PROVOKING.

TALKING ABOUT THE DIFFERENT APPROACHES WE SEE TOWARDS DE DE-RADICALIZATION.

YOU VISITED SEVERAL OTHER NATIONS.

TELL ME WHAT YOU ARE SEEING IN TERMS OF COMPARATIVE APPROACHES HERE.

THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE COMPARATIVE APPROACHES.

IT'S INTERESTING.

SOME OF THE MOST INTERESTING APPROACHES COME OUT OF PLACES WITH REALLY STRONG SAFETY NETS.

I WENT TO DENMARK WHERE THERE IS THIS INCREDIBLY WELL-FUNDED -- BECAUSE THEY HAVE THIS GREAT SOCIAL SAFETY NET -- PROGRAM WHERE POLICE AND DETECTIVES HELP PEOPLE COMING BACK FROM THE ISLAMIC STATE OR OTHER PEOPLE AT RISK OF BECOMING JIHADI, THEY SORT OF, KIND OF SMOTHER THEM WITH LOVE AND GIVE THEM COUNSELORS AND HELP THEM FIND APARTMENTS AND JOBS AND SHRINKS AND KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING.

CRITICS HAVE CALLED IT HUG A TERRORIST PROGRAM.

THAT HAS SEEMED TO WORK PRETTY WELL FOR THE CITY OF OUR HOST, WHICH IS ONE CITY IN DENMARK.

IT WAS INTERESTING GOING TO MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRIES WHERE THERE WASN'T THE ELEMENT OF ISLAMAPHOBIA.

I WENT TO INDONESIA, WHERE THERE'S A COTTAGE INDUSTRY OF NOT FOR PROFITS HELPING FORMER JIHADIS.

YOU GET PEOPLE WHO INVITE THEM OVER TO STATE WITH THEM SO THEY CAN HELP THEM GET BACK ON THEIR FEET AFTER THEY HAVE SERVED THEIR PRISON TERMS.

THERE ARE PROGRAMS TO GIVE THE WIVES OF THESE JIHADIS MONEY TO START BUSINESSES.

THEY REALIZE THAT THERE'S ECONOMIC STRAIN THERE.

THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF REALLY GOOD KIND OF SURROUND SOUND PROGRAMS.

SAUDI ARABIA, FOR EXAMPLE -- ALTHOUGH, PEOPLE HAVE A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH IT FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

SAUDI ARABIA HAS THIS KIND OF ELEGANT CAMP THAT FORMER JIHADIS GET SENT TO.

THEY ARE GIVEN MONEY FOR CARS AND TO HAVE WEDDINGS AND SO ON.

IT'S A VERY SORT OF TOP DOWN APPROACH.

THAT IS WHY -- I SORT OF CAME OUT ON THE OTHER SIDE THINKING, THE REALLY, REALLY GOOD PROGRAMS ARE VERY LOCAL.

THEY'RE NOT GOVERNMENT SAYING, THIS IS HOW IT WILL BE AND THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO DE-RADICALIZE TO.

THAT GETS, IN MY MIND, SORT OF CREEPILY CLOSE TO BRAINWASHING.

I THINK IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THAT WE HAVEN'T REALLY DEVELOPED DE-RADICALIZATION PROGRAMS.

I HAVE A LITTLE LESS THAN HALF A MINUTE.

WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO?

WELL, WE NEED TO -- WE HAVE THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

WE CAN'T TELL PEOPLE WHAT TO BELIEVE.

WE DO, HOWEVER, NEED TO STOP PEOPLE GETTING INTO VIOLENT ACTIVITY.

WE NEED TO STOP HATRED.

THERE ARE VERY SMALL -- THERE ARE A FEW -- THERE'S EXIT USA FOR FOLKS WHO HAVE BEEN IN WHITE SUE SUPREMACIST MOVEMENTS.

THERE ARE A COUPLE.

WE ARE VERY THIN ON THE GROUND.

THE ONLY DE-RADICALIZATION PROGRAM I FOUND BACK A COUPLE YEARS AGO WAS IN MINNESOTA.

IT HAD EXACTLY ONE PERSON IN IT.

IT WAS SORT OF ENTREPRENEURIAL AND FLY BY THE SEAT OF THEIR PANTS.

THEY WERE MAKING IT UP AS THEY WENT ALONG.

IT WORKED.

BECAUSE I THINK WE DO HAVE THIS FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND FREEDOM OF RELIGION, PEOPLE ARE VERY LOATH TO DICTATE WHAT YOU WILL BELIEVE.

CARLA, ONCE AGAIN, IT'S RIGHT NOW -- IT'S THOUGHT PROVOKING AND COMPELLING AND VERY TIMELY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPENDING TIME WITH US.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

THANK YOU.

THANKS SO MUCH.

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