METROFOCUS: March 31, 2021

Encore: November 24, 2021

As Women’s History Month comes to a close we honor the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg who would have celebrated her 88th birthday on March 15th. Three weeks before she died, RBG and her co-author and former law clerk, Berkeley Law Professor Amanda Tyler, submitted the final manuscript for “Justice, Justice Thou Shalt Pursue: A Life’s Work Fighting for a More Perfect Union.” More than a book, it’s a collection of the opinions, arguments, interviews, and speeches that Ginsburg selected to best capture her legacy. Tonight, Amanda Tyler joins us with an illuminating look into Ginsburg’s life as a lawyer and judge, as well as a mother, wife, friend, cancer patient, and champion for a more perfect and just union.

For more information on “Justice, Justice Thou Shalt Pursue: A Life’s Work Fighting for a More Perfect Union,” click here.

TRANSCRIPT

> THIS IS 'METROFOCUS' WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD, AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

'METROFOCUS' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JANET PRINDLE SEIDLER, JODY AND JOHN ARNHOLD, CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, JUDY AND JOSH WESTON, DR. ROBERT C. AND TINA SOHN FOUNDATION.

GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO 'METROFOCUS.'

I'M JACK FORD.

JUST WEEKS BEFORE SHE PASSED AWAY, JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG WAS WORKING CLOSELY WITH HER FORMER LAW CLERK AND GOOD FRIEND, PROFESSOR MA A MAN DA TYLER TO FINISH A BOOK WABOU HER GROUND-BREAKING CAREER.

'JUSTICE, JUSTICE,000 SHALT PURSUE' IS THE TITLE OF THE BOOK.

IT'S NOT A TYPICAL MEMOIR BUT A COLLECTION OF SPEECHES AND ARGUMENTS AND INTERVIEWS THAT TOGETHER PRESENTED THOUSAND THE JUSTICE HERSELF WANTED TO BE REMEMBERED.

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS THEIR BOOK AS WELL AS THE LIFE AND LEGACY OF HER MENTOR IS AMANDA TYLER, PROFESSOR OF LAW AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA BERKELEY SCHOOL OF LAW AND COAUTHOR ALONGSIDE THE LATE JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG.

PROFESSOR, WELCOME TO YOU.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

I HAVE TOLL Y TELL YOU AS I BEFORE I SPENT THE WEEKEND READING THIS AND IT WAS FABULOUS.

I KNEW A LOT ABOUT JUSTICE GINSBURG, I HAD THE GOOD FORTUNE TO MEET HER BUT THERE ARE SO MANY PERSONAL ASPECTS OF THIS I THINK PEOPLE WILL LOVE WHEN THEY GET A CHANCE TO READ IT.

SO LET ME START FIRST OF ALL I WANT TO START WHERE I START OFF THAT IS THE TITLE.

MANY AUTHORS SAID SOMETIMES THAT'S THE HARDEST THING TO COME UP WITH, TO MAKE SURE IT'S REPRESENTING WHAT YOU WANT IT TO REPRESENT.

TELL ME ABOUT -- THEN AGAIN SO PEOPLE KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE, 'JUSTICE, JUSTICE, THOU SHALT PURSUE.'

WHERE DID THE TITLE COME FROM?

IT IS TRUE.

CHOOSING THE TITLE FOR THE BOOK IS CHALLENGING.

THIS ONE HAPPILY EVENTUALLY CAME TO US, THE FIRST PART OF THE TITLE, 'JUSTICE, JUSTICE, THOU SHALT PURSUE' IS A PASSAGE FROM DUETERONOMY AND IT WAS SPECIAL TO JUSTICE GINSBURG.

SHE HAD A PIECE OF ART UP IN CHAMBERS THAT HAD THE PASSAGE ON IT, AND WHEN I THINK ABOUT HER LIFE AND HER LEGACY, I THINK THAT THAT PASSAGE IS REALLY, YOU KNOW, IT'S ILLUSTRATIVE OF WHAT SHE WAS ABOUT.

IT REALLY DEFINES AND TELLS US WHAT DROVE HER.

YOU WALK INTO SOMEBODY'S OFFICE OR THEIR CHAMBERS AND YOU CAN LEARN AN AWFUL LOT ABOUT WHO THEY ARE BY WHAT THEY HAVE SPREAD ABOUT AND I CAN SEE WHY WHEN YOU SAW THIS UP ON THE WALL THAT YOU ALL SAID OKAY, THIS IS IT.

THIS SHOULD BE THE TITLE FOR THIS.

I'LL GET TO HOW THE BOOK CAME ABOUT BECAUSE I THINK IT'S A FASCINATING PROCESS HERE.

FIRST PERSONALLY, I WANT TO GO BACK TO WHEN YOU FIRST MET JUSTICE GINSBURG, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING WITH HER, SAY TALKING WITH HER, WHEN YOU WERE INTERVIEWING WITH HER ABOUT THE NOTION OF BECOMING A CLERK, NOW, YOU GRADUATED FROM LAW SCHOOL, YOU HAD ALREADY CLERKED FOR A JUDGE, YOU WERE LOOKING AT THE PINNACLE REALLY IN TERMS OF I THINK SOMEBODY WHO IS LOOKING FOR A CLERK TO BEGIN ON THE U.S.

SUPREME COURT FOR ANYBODY, INCLUDING THOSE OF US WHO WOULD NOT HAVE QUALIFIED FOR IT BUT WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR INTERVIEW WITH HER.

IT'S INTERESTING.

I ACTUALLY HADN'T GRADUATED LAW SCHOOL.

I WAS IN THE WINTER OF MY THIRD YEAR OF LAW SCHOOL, SOMETIMES THE HIRING FOR CLERKSHIP HAPPENS WAY IN ADVANCE, AND I WAS ACTUALLY IN THE MIDDLE OF FINAL EXAMS WHEN I GOT A CALL SAYING CAN YOU COME DOWN?

I WAS IN BOSTON, CAN YOU COME DOWN TO WASHINGTON TO INTERVIEW AND OF COURSE, THE ANSWER WAS YES, BUT YOU KNOW, IT WAS INTERESTING I WAS SO STRESSED ABOUT MY FINAL EXAMS, I THINK THAT HELPED ME FROM BEING TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY STRESSED ABOUT THE INTERVIEW, WHICH ISN'T TO SAY I WASN'T INCREDIBLY NERVOUS TO MEET JUSTICE GINSBURG.

IN NO SMALL PART BECAUSE I'D JUST BEEN READING HER OPINIONS AND READING ABOUT HER BIG WINS IN THE '70s IN CONSTITUTIONAL LAW.

SO SHE WAS FOR ME A ROLE MODEL, A HERO, AN IDOL AND THE IDEA THAT I MIGHT HAVE THE CHANCE TO WORK FOR HER WAS PRETTY AWESOME, BUT I REMEMBER, I'M SMILING BECAUSE IT'S JUST A HAPPY MEMORY, MEETING HER FOR THE FIRST TIME.

I WALKED INTO HER OFFICE INCREDIBLY NERVOUS, ALTHOUGH HER CLERKS HAD MET WITH ME AND TRIED TO SORT OF CALM MY NERVES, ALL OF THAT GROUP OF CLERKS REMAIN GOOD FRIENDS TO ME TO THIS DAY, AND THEN WHEN I WENT IN, SHE JUST WAS SO WELCOMING, AND SHE HA THIS WAY TO PUT PEOPLE IMMEDIATELY AT EASE AND I THINK PART OF IT WAS BECAUSE SHE NEVER CARRIED A BIG EGO.

SHE WAS HERSELF.

THE REST IS A BIT OF A BLUR, TO BE HONEST, BUT SOMEHOW I WALKED OUT OF THAT OFFICE WITH AN OFFOFFER TO BE HER CLERK AND I REMEMBER FEELING ON TOP OF THE WORLD.

AS I LOOK BACK OVER 20 YEARS LATER, I THINK AS EXCITED AS I WAS IN THAT MOMENT, I DON'T THINK I EVEN BEGAN TO APPRECIATE JUST HOW LUCKY THAT MOMENT WAS, AND HOW MUCH THAT WAS GOING TO CHANGE MY LIFE.

AND ONE OF THE FASCINATING THINGS YOU SAID THE COINCIDENCE, IF YOU WILL, OF FINAL EXAMS, THOSE OF US WHO HAVE HAD THEM IN LAW SCHOOL THAT'S NOT A FUN TIME.

YES.

AND THEN DOING SUCH AN ENORMOUS INTERVIEW AND I'VE GOT TO TELL YOU, I'VE MET A LOT OF JUDGES WHEN I WAS TRYING CASES FOR A LIVING AND JUSTICES, APPELLATE COURT JUSTICES, SUPREME COURT JUSTICES OVER THE YEARS, AND NOT ALL OF THEM, AND I DON'T MEAN THIS TO BE OVERLY CRITICAL BUT NOT ALL OF THEM ARE GOING TO MAKE YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE AND AT HOME IMMEDIATELY.

WHY DO YOU THINK -- WHAT WAS IT ABOUT HER THAT DID THAT?

YOU KNOW, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK IT WAS IN PART WHAT I SAID BEFORE, THAT SHE DIDN'T CARRY A BIG EGO.

SHE DIDN'T TELL WAR STORIES.

ACTUALLY MUCH TO THE CLERK'S CHAGRIN, WE WOULD HAVE SAT AROUND THE FIREPLACE LISTENING.

YOU WOULD HAVE GOTTEN NO WORK DONE IF YOU START LISTENING TO HER BECAUSE SHE HAD SOME STORIES TO TELL.

EXACTLY BUT I THINK THE THING ABOUT HER THAT WAS REALLY SPECIAL THAT I CHERISHED AND I THINK ALL OF HER CLERKS WOULD SAY THIS IS THAT SHE TOOK A GENUINE INTEREST IN US, IN OUR LIVES, AND THAT WAS REALLY SPECIAL, BECAUSE IT MEANT THAT NOT JUST WHEN YOU WERE CLERKING FOR HER IT SHE CARE ABOUT YOU AND TEACH YOU AND MENTOR YOU, BUT THAT CARRIED THROUGH FOR ALL THE TIME AFTER YOU CLERKED.

SO JUST TO GIVE SOME EXAMPLES, WHENEVER A CLERK HAD A CHILD JOIN THEIR FAMILY IN DUE COURSE, SHE HAD T-SHIRTS PRINTED.

I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE TI-S-SHIRTS.

PLEASE TELL.

SHE IT T-SHIRTS PRINTED IN BULK THAT SAID 'RBG GRAND CLERK.'

YOU'D HAVE A BABY ALMOST TO GET THE T-SHIRT.

IT WAS JUST SO SPECIAL AND THAT'S JUST ONE OF MANY WAYS THAT SHE WAS INCREDIBLY THOUGHTFUL AND SHE WOULD KNOW WHETHER FIRSTHAND OR THROUGH HER ASSISTANTS IF YOU WERE GOING THROUGH OF A DIFFICULT TIME AND SHE WOULD REACH OUT.

I HAD A PERIOD IN MY LIFE A FEW YEARS AFTER CLERKING FOR HER THAT WAS VERY DIFFICULT, AND SHE WROTE A LETTER TO ME EXPLAINING HOW -- AND I KNEW THIS -- SHE HAD BEEN THROUGH SIMILAR EXPERIENCE AND SAYING YOU CAN'T APPRECIATE IT NOW BUT YOU'LL LOOK BACK ON THIS PERIOD AND ACTUALLY BE GRATEFUL IN PART FOR HAVING COME THROUGH THIS AND HERE'S WHY, AND YOU KNOW, THAT DIDN'T TAKE THAT MUCH OF HER TIME TO WRITE THAT LETTER, BUT WOW, WHAT AN IMPACT, AND IT JUST REALLY CARRIED ME THROUGH SOME DIFFICULT TIMES.

IT DIDN'T TAKE MUCH TIME AND THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE THEY HAVE A LOT OF THINGS ON THE PLATES TO TAKE THAT TIME, THOSE MOMENTS.

LET ME TALK ABOUT THE BOOK ITSELF, THE GENESIS WAS INTERESTING, HOW IT CAME ABOUT.

IT STARTED OFF AS A CONSEQUENCE OF YOU REACHING OUT TO HER ABOUT A LECTURE SERIES.

TELL US ABOUT THAT.

SO SHE HAD BEEN FRIENDS FOR SOME 50 YEARS WITH A WOMAN NAMED HEMA HILL KAIG.

SHE WAS MY COLLEAGUE AT BERKELEY LAW, THE SECOND WOMAN ON OUR FACULTY AND THE FIRST WOMAN LAW DEAN OF BERKELEY LAW.

HERMA AND THE JUSTICE HAD WRITTEN ALONG WITH THE THIRD CO-AUTHOR, KENNETH DAVIDSON, THE VERY FIRST CASE BOOK ON SEX DISCRIMINATION AND THE LAW.

THEY HAD EFFECTIVELY FOUNDED THE FIELD OF SEX DISCRIMINATION IN THE LAW IN EARLY 1970s.

AND HERMA UNFORTUNATELY PASSED AWAY IN 2017, AND A COLLEAGUE OF MINE AND HER HUSBAND SPEAR-HEADED RAISING MONEY TO FUND A HERMA CAIN MEMORIAL LECTURE.

THERE'S NO ONE WHO WOULD BETTER COME TO MIND TO GIVE THAT FIRST LECTURE THAN JUSTICE GINSBURG, AND I ASKED HER FOR VARIOUS THINGS OVER THE YEARS BUT ALWAYS SHEEPISH ABOUT IT.

HERE I WAS BULLISH, PRETTY CONFIDENT SHE WOULD SAY YES WHEN I CALLED AND INVITED HER TO GIVE THE FIRST LECTURE AND OF COURSE, SHE DID, BECAUSE SHE LOVED TO HONOR HERMA AND JUST FELT A PROFOUND LOYALTY TO HERMA.

SHE SUGGESTED WHY DON'T WE MAKE IT A CONVERSATION, AND SO I HAPPILY AGREED, AND WE WENT BACK AND FORTH FOR A LONG TIME BEFORE THE EVENT, DECIDING ON WHAT WE WOULD COVER AND WHAT QUESTIONS WE WOULD ASK, AND STRUCTURE THE CONVERSATION THAT WILL EXPAND THE FULL ARC OF HER LIFE, AND THEN WHEN SHE CAME, WE DECIDED THAT MAYBE THIS WOULD BE THE BASIS FOR A BOOK, AND WE COULD ANCHOR IT WITH THE CONVERSATION, BUT THEN BRING IN MATERIALS, MANY OF WHICH HADN'T BEEN PUBLISHED, THAT SORT OF COMPLIMENTED THE ARC OF HER LIFE AS WE TRACED IT IN THE CONVERSATION AND IF I CAN SHARE JUST ONE MORE PART OF THE GENESIS OF THE BOOK, WE KNEW THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PRESS WAS CONSIDERING AT THAT TIME PUBLISHING HERMA'S FINAL WORK, WHICH IS A PRESERVATION OF THE STORIES OF THE FIRST WOMEN LAW PROFESSORS IN THIS COUNTRY, AND WE KNEW THAT OTHER PUBLISHERS HAD PASSED THAT OVER, AND JUSTICE GINSBURG HAD WRITTEN THE INTRODUCTION FOR THAT BOOK BACK IN 2015, AND REALLY WANTED TO SEE IT PUBLISHED.

SO THAT WAS ALSO PART OF IT.

WE GOT THE IDEA AND WE WENT TO THE PRESS, AND WE SAID WE'D LIKE TO DO THIS BOOK, BUT IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO US THAT IF WE DO IT, IT COME OUT ALONGSIDE HERMA CAIN'S 'PAVING THE WAY' HAPPILY THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PRESS WAS EAGER TO PUBLISH BOTH BOOKS.

I'M PROUD YOU'LL SEE THEM ALONGSIDE ONE ANOTHER THIS SPRING.

NOT SURPRISING KNOWING WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT JUSTICE GINSBURG SHE'D BE CONCERNED ABOUT REACHING OUT TO SOMEBODY ELSE ABOUT SOMEBODY ELSE'S PUBLICATION, SHE FELT IT WAS NEEDED TO BE DONE.

WANT TO DO MINE, DO HERS, TOO.

IT'S NOT A SURPRISE WHEN WE SAW THAT.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE STRUCTURE OF THE BOOK ITSELF BECAUSE I SAID IN THE INTROINTR INTRODUCTION IT'S NOT A TYPICAL MEMOIR ALTHOUGH YOU LEARN A GREAT DEAL ABOUT JUSTICE GINSBURG IN TERMS OF HER BACKGROUND AND EVOLUTION AS AN ADVOCATE AND JUSTICE HERE.

TELL ME WHY YOU DECIDED TO DO IT IN THE WAY YOU MENTIONED, INCLUDING NOT JUST THE INTERVIEW BUT ALSO OPINIONS AND LECTURES AND SPEECHES AND DISSENTS, THINGS THAT SHE HAD DONE.

WHY DECIDE TO DO IT THAT WAY?

THE IDEA WAS TO DRAW ON MATERIALS FROM DIFFERENT PARTS OF HER LIFE, AND ALLOW THOSE TO SORT OF PAINT THE PICTURE OF WHERE SHE WAS AT DIFFERENT STAGES OF THE LIFE, SO THERE'S A BIG SECTION ON HER TIME AS AN ADVOCATE AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WAS REALLY EXCITED TO BE ABLE TO BE A PART OF WAS HELPING HER FIND AND PRINT THAT VERY FIRST BRIEF THAT SHE WROTE WITH HER HUSBAND, MARTY, IN THE MORITZ CASE.

THAT'S THE CASE THAT IS AT THE HEART OF THE MOVIE ON THE BASIS OF SEX, WHICH IS A GREAT MOVIE, AS MUCH ABOUT THEIR MARRIAGE AS ABOUT THE CASE, WHICH IS NO SURPRISE, THE MOVIE WAS WRITTEN BY THEIR NEPHEW.

IT HAS SOME DRAMATIC LIBERTIES, SO I HAD TALKED WITH HER ABOUT THERE IS A POINT WHERE SHE COMES TO GIVE ORAL ARGUMENT AND HESITATES AND I FOUND THAT NOT BELIEVABLE, AND I ASKED HER ABOUT IT, SHE SAID 'OF COURSE I DIDN'T HESITATE.

I KNEW MYSELF.'

SHE MIGHT DO A LOT OF THINGS, SHE'S NOT GOING TO HESITATE IN A COURTROOM.

NO.

IF YOU KNEW JUSTICE GINSBURG, YOU KNEW THAT SHE WAS ALWAYS THE BEST PREPARED PERSON IN THE ROOM AND SO NO, SHE WAS IMPECCABLY PREPARED FOR THAT ARGUMENT.

BUT THAT WAS REALLY FUN.

SO PULLING OUT PIECES OF HER HISTORY, THAT HADN'T BEEN PUBLISHED BEFORE, THAT'S A BRIEF THAT LAYS OUT EXACTLY WHERE SHE'S GOING, HOW SHE THINKS ABOUT GENDER DISCRIMINATION AND ALL OF THE ADVOCACY SHE'S GOING TO DO OVER THE COURSE OF THE NEXT DECADE.

THEN WE GOT TO TALK ABOUT OKAY, WHAT WERE YOUR FAVORITE ARGUMENTS, AND SHE PICKS HER TWO VERY FAVORITE ARGUMENTS THAT SHE HAD.

ASK I INTERRUPT?

YES.

WAS IT HARD FOR HER -- I WAS READING THIS SAYING, ALL RIGHT, YOU HAD TO PICK THESE OUT.

IS THAT LIKE PICKING OUT YOUR FAVORITE CHILD?

IS THERE A WAY THAT YOU CAN REALLY SAY OR WAS THERE A CLEAR FAVORITE FOR HER, WE SAID THIS ONE, THIS ONE, THAT ONE?

THAT'S INTERESTING.

I THINK WHAT THE ORAL ARGUMENTS QUICKLY SHE SAID THESE ARE MY TWO PARENTS FRONTIER AND WEISENFELD.

FRONT FEAR WAS FIRST AND SHE SPOKE UNINTERRUPTED.

ASTONISHING IN THE SUPREME COURT FOR THEM TO LET YOU GO UNINTERRUPTED.

LIGHT, THEY HAD TO CHANGE THE RULES TO PROMISE ADVOCATES A COUPLE OF MINUTES NOT BEING INTERRUPTED AT THE START OF THEIR PRESENTATION, SO IT'S EXTRAORDINARY THIS IDEA THAT SHE TALKED FOR OVER TEN MINUTES.

BUT THEN SHE GRABS THE JUSTICES WITH THE QUOTATION WITH THE SHOW-STOPPING LINE, 'ALL WE WANT IS FOR MEN TO TAKE THEIR FEET OFF OUR NECKS' AND WEISSENFELD WAS HER FAVORITE CASE HOW GENDER ROLES ARE NOT HARDWIRED, A FATHER WHO WANTED TO STAY HOME AND RAISE HIS SON AFTER HIS WIFE DIED IN CHILDBIRTH AND THE CASE WAS SPECIAL TO HER.

WHEN WE GOT TO THE OPINION, SHE PICKED HER VERY FAVORITE OPINIONS FROM HER TIME ON THE COURT, THE ONES THAT IF SOMEONE READ NOTHING ELSE SHE'D WANT THEM TO READ AND THERE SHE DID SAY THAT'S LIKE ASKING ME TO NAME MY FAVORITE GRANDCHILD.

THERE WAS SOME RESISTANCE INITIALLY BUT AS WE TALKED AND WE WORKED THROUGH IT, EVENTUALLY SHE REALLY DID SETTLE ON THESE FOUR OPINIONS, AND I SAY THAT BECAUSE SHE HAD A GREAT OPINION, WOUND UP BEING HER FINAL OPINION IN THE CASE CALLED LITTLE SISTERS OF THE POOR LAST SUMMER AND I SUGGESTED WHY DON'T WE ADD THAT ONE, BECAUSE IT'S PRETTY GREAT AND SHE SAID NO, NO, WE'VE GOT OUR FOUR.

LET'S KEEP OUR FOUR.

SO THAT'S HOW WE WORKED THROUGH THAT PART AND THE SPEECHES, WE WANTED TO INCLUDE SPEECHES FROM THE LAST FEW YEARS, NOT SPEECHES GOING BACK BUT SPEECHES THAT SHE HAD BEEN MAKING JUST IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS OF HER LIFE THAT ARE VERY REFLECTIVE.

YOU HEAR HER THINKING BACK ABOUT FOR EXAMPLE ROLE MODELS THAT INFLUENCED HER AS A KID, THERE'S A LOT OF DISCUSSION IN PARTICULAR OF HER FAMILY, AND HOW PROUD SHE WAS TO BE THE CHILD OF IMMIGRANTS, AND HOW REMARKABLE SHE THOUGHT IT WAS, THAT THE DAUGHTER OF AN IMMIGRANT COULD ONE DAY SIT ON THE SUPREME COURT AS IN HER CASE.

WHEN YOU PUT IT TOGETHER, YOU GET A FULL PICTURE OF WHO SHE WAS AS A PERSON, AND OVERWHELMINGLY IT'S ALL MATERIAL IN WHICH SHE IS SPEAKING IN HER VOICE DIRECTLY TO THE READER.

YOU DO GET THE SENSE IT'S HER VOICE COMING THROUGH.

AGAIN I'M TALKING WITH PROFESSOR AMANDA TYLER ABOUT THE BOOK SHE'S WRITTEN WITH THE LATE JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG CALLED JUSTICE, JUSTICE, THOUA SHALT PURSUE.'

IT'S JUST A MARVELOUS, MARVELOUS LOOK.

AND SOME WAYS INTO THE HEART AND SOUL OF JUSTICE GINSBURG.

YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT YOU'RE GOING TO SEE OPINIONS AND BRIEFS AND THINGS, THAT WILL BE A LITTLE BIT DRY AND ACADEMIC, AND IT WASN'T.

YOU REALLY WALKED AWAY SAYING I THINK I KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT HER.

I WAS SURPRISED TO LEARN, I KNEW ABOUT HER CAREER PATH, BUT I WAS SURPRISED TO LEARN THAT IN THE BEGINNING, THE ONLY PERSON -- SHE WASN'T THINKING OF THE LAW.

MY THOUGHT WAS I LOOKED AT HER SAYING OKAY, IT'S JUSTICE GINSBURG.

SHE MUST HAVE COME FROM THE WOMB READY TO MAKE ARGUMENTS, READY TO LISTEN TO ARGUMENTS AND WRITE OPINIONS.

WHAT WAS IT THAT SET HER ON THAT PATH?

SO I WAS SURPRISED, TOO.

I HAD NEVER ASKED HER ABOUT WHAT WERE YOU THINKING YOU WOULD BE WHEN YOU WERE A KID AND I DID AND WE TALK ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK AND SHE SAID TO ME, THERE WEREN'T WOMEN IN THE LAW, NO ROLE MODELS, SO WHY WOULD I THINK IT?

IT'S INTERESTING, JUST TO SPEAK FOR A MOMENT ABOUT MY OWN LIFE, JUSTICE O CONNOR WAS PUT ON THE COURT WHEN I WAS A YOUNG GIRL AND I REMEMBER THINKING WOW, OKAY, WOMEN CAN BE LAWYERS.

THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHEN SHE WAS A CHILD AND WHEN I WAS A CHILD, IN THE '70s AND INTO THE '80s.

SO IT REALLY WASN'T -- SHE EXPLAINS IN THE BOOK IT WASN'T UNTIL COLLEGE THAT SHE STARTS THINKING ABOUT THE LAW, AND IT'S BECAUSE SHE HAD A VERY INFLUENTIAL PROFESSOR WHO WAS TEACHING HER ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION AND ALL OF THIS WAS HAPPENING DURING McCARTHY ERA AND SHE LEARNED THROUGH HER PROFESSOR THAT LAWYERS WERE STANDING UP FOR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS, AND AS SHE TELLS IN THE BOOK FOR THE RIGHT OF AMERICANS TO THINK AND SPEAK WHAT THEY WANT, AND AS SHE SAYS IN HER CONVERSATION, I GOT THE IDEA THAT BEING A LAWYER WAS A PRETTY NIFTY THING.

AND I THINK I SAID --

IS THAT A LEGAL TERM, NIFTY THING?

YOU COULD SEE HER SAYING THAT.

I SAID THAT TO HER.

I THINK I SPEAK FOR MOST PEOPLE WHEN I SAY I'M GLAD THAT'S HOW THE STORY UNFOLDS.

SHE WAS, YOU KNOW, SHE MET MARTY, HER BELOVED HUSBAND, AND THEY DECIDED THEY WERE GOING TO GO INTO THE SAME CAREER WHICH IS ANOTHER REALLY INTERESTING THING THAT YOU READ ABOUT IN THIS BOOK, AND A BUSINESS SCHOOL WAS OUT BECAUSE MOST BUSINESS SCHOOLS INCLUDING HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL AT THE TIME DIDN'T ADMIT WOMEN AND SO IT'S ALSO IN PART THROUGH SOME OF JUST CIRCUMSTANCE THAT THEY WIND UP AT HARVARD LAW SCHOOL TOGETHER.

YOU TALK ABOUT THAT NOT SEEING WOMEN.

I GO BACK, I'M IN LAW SCHOOL IN THE EARLY 1970s, I HAD JUST A HANDFUL OF WOMEN IN MY CLASS, WHEN I START WORK AS A PROSECUTOR, THERE WERE NO WOMEN, NO WOMEN PROSECUTORS IN OUR OFFICE, AND WHEN I WAS TEACHING IN LAW SCHOOL, I WAS TEACHING TRIAL ADVOCACY, I HAD NO WOMEN IN MY CLASS, AND I LITERALLY ROAMED THE HALLS ASKING THIRD YEAR, LAST YEAR LAW STUDENTS WOMEN, WOULD YOU LIKE TO TAKE TRIAL ADVOCACY HERE AND THE RESPONSE FROM SO MANY OF THEM WAS, WELL, THERE ARE NO WOMEN ADVOCATES OUT THERE.

WHERE WOULD I GO WITH IT?

FINALLY CONVINCED THE COUPLE TO COME IN BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, THERE WERE JUST AND I'M SURE WHEN YOU WERE COMING OUT, YOU'RE MUCH YOUNGER THAN I AM BUT AT LEAST YOU SAW MORE WOMEN THERE AND A LOT OF THAT HAS TO DO WITH THE INFLUENCE OF PEOPLE LIKE JUSTICE GINSBURG, YES?

ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY.

LET ME ASK SOME MORE THINGS ABOUT HER.

SHE SEEMED TO THOROUGHLY ENJOY AND IN MANY WAYS APLAUD HER DISSENTS.

I WOULD THINK OFTENTIMES JUSTICES MIGHT BE MOST -- I'M NOT SAYING SHE WASN'T PROUD OF OPINIONS SHE MIGHT HAVE AUTHORED BUT WHAT WAS IT ABOUT HER THAT MADE HER POINT SO OFTEN TO HER DISSENTS AND TO EMBRACE THEM?

I THINK IT WAS A LOT OF THINGS.

YOU KNOW, IF WE HAD BEEN ABLE TO WRITE A BOOK OR PUT TOGETHER A BOOK IN 2020 THAT HAD ALL MAJORITY OF OPINIONS INCLUDING IN THE CASES THAT WE INCLUDED, LET'S BE CLEAR, I'M SURE SHE WOULD HAVE PREFERRED THAT.

AND THAT'S PART OF IT.

SHE DID NOT LIKE TO LOSE.

NOBODY LIKES TO LOSE BUT SHE REALLY DIDN'T LIKE TO LOSE AND THE DISSENTS SHE CHOSE TO INCLUDE IN THE CASE ARE DISSENTS ABOUT WHICH SHE STILL FEELS OR FELT IN 2020 EXTREMELY PASSIONATE.

SHE REALLY BELIEVED SHE WAS RIGHT AND I THINK SHE CHOSE THEM BECAUSE SHE WANTED PEOPLE TO REALLY UNDERSTAND WHERE SHE WAS COMING FROM, AND IF ANYTHING, SORT OF HEAR A BATTLECRY THAT THERE'S STILL WORK TO BE DONE AND IN PARTICULAR, ONE OF THE DISSENTS IS LEDBETTER, IN WHICH CONGRESS RESPONDED BY CHANGING TITLE VII TO ADOPT HER INTERPRETATION THAT SHE SUGGESTED IN DISSENT TO MAKE IT EASIER TO SUE FOR ONGOING PAY DISCRIMINATION, BUT THE OTHER DISSENTS INCLUDE ONE IN THE REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS CASE AND ONE IN A VOTING RIGHTS CASE THAT SHALL BE COUNTY DISSENT, AND MAYBE I'M BIASED HERE BUT A TOUR DE FORCE, WHERE SHE EXPLAINS POWERFULLY AND FORCEFULLY HOW MISGUIDED THE MAJORITY OPINION IS IN EFFECTIVELY GUTTING A MAJOR COMPONENT OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT OF 1965, AND I THINK SHE WANTED TO INCLUDE THOSE BECAUSE SHE SAID ABOUT HER DISSENT, SHE WASN'T JUST WRITING IN REAL TIME.

SHE WAS WRITING FOR THE FUTURE.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT PERSONAL CONNECTION THAT SHE HAD WITH HER CLERKS AND YOU SEE THAT A LOT WITH THE VARIOUS JUSTICES, SOMETIMES DIFFERING DEGREES AND MANIFESTING THEMSELVES IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

I WAS STRUCK BY SOMETHING YOU TALKED ABOUT IN THE BOOK, WHEN SHE PASSED AWAY, I REMEMBER SEEING THE NEWS COVERAGE OF IT AND TALKING ABOUT HER FORMER CLERKS COMING BACK, BUT I WAS STRUCK, GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES, WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THE TIME, YOU HAD ABOUT 120 CLERKS COME BACK.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT YOU ALL DID AS PART OF HONORING, BECAUSE IT WAS FAR MORE COMPLEX AND EXPANSIVE THAN MOST PEOPLE I THINK EVER REALIZE.

IT WAS AN OVERWHELMING EXPE EXPERIENCE, WE GOT NEWS, WE WERE ALL SHOCKED, EVEN THOSE OF US WHO KNEW HOW MUCH THROUGH THE RECENT WEEKS AND MONTHS.

IT STILL WAS DEVASTATING.

I THINK SO MANY OF US, PERHAPS THE AMERICAN PUBLIC BEGAN TO BELIEVE SHE WAS INVINCIBLE, BUT NOTHING UPON NOTHING WAS GOING TO STOP US FROM HONORING HER, AS IS THE TRADITION WHEN A JUSTICE PASSES THE CLERK'S RECEIPT AT THE COURT FOR THEM TO LIE IN REPOSE.

THE DIFFERENCE HERE WE WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GLOBAL PANDEMIC AND MADE IT INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT FOR SO MANY OF US TO COME, BUT I JUST REMEMBER THINKING IMMEDIATELY I'M GOING.

I HAVEN'T LEFT MY HOUSE BARELY IN SIX MONTHS, BUT NOTHING WAS GOING TO STOP ME FROM HONORING HER AND THE SAME WAY THAT NOTHING WAS GOING TO STOP HER FROM HONORING MLK WHEN SHE GAVE THE LECTURE AT THE HEART OF THE BOOKS WE COMPILED.

THERE'S A LOYALTY INVOLVED.

FOR THE CLERKS, WE FOUND A WAY AND WE GOT THERE AND WE MODIFIED ASPECTS OF THE TRADITIONAL CEREMONY.

INSTEAD OF LINING UP EN MASSE ALONG THE STEPS, WE SPREAD OUT AND I THINK THAT WAS A MORE POWERFUL STATEMENT, BECAUSE YOU SAW ALL OF US ACROSS THE SUPREME COURT AND I REMEMBER BECAUSE I HAD THE HONOR OF WALKING BEHIND THE PALLBEARERS, I CAME OUT ON THE STEPS AND SAW EVERYBODY SPREAD OUT AND IT WAS SO DRAMATIC, AND IT JUST -- I JUST REMEMBER FEELING SUCH IMMENSE PRIDE TO BE A PART OF THIS GROUP, ALONG WITH JUST DEVASTATION, OF COURSE, ABOUT HER LOSS.

WHAT WE DID THEN WAS WE WENT ON AND FOR 48 HOURS, WE STOOD VIGIL BY HER SIDE.

NORMALLY JUSTICES ONLY ARE IN REPOSE FOR 24 HOURS, BUT BECAUSE OF THE EXPECTED CROWDS AND BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC AND THE NEED FOR DISTANCING, WE EXTENDED HERS TO 48 HOURS AND THAT WAS AROUND THE CLOCK, SO SHE WAS OUTSIDE FOR THE PUBLIC TO COME BY AND PAY RESPECTS DURING THE DAY, INTO THE EVENING, BUT THEN SHE CAME INSIDE OVERNIGHT, AND THOSE ACTUALLY WERE MY FAVORITE SHIFTS, BECAUSE WHAT WE WOULD DO IS SHE WAS IN THE GREAT HALL, AND THERE WAS A GUARD, STANDING AT ATTENTION, AT HER HEAD, BUT THEN TWO CLERKS STOOD BY HER SIDE AND SO IT WAS JUST US IN THE QUIET, IN THE GRANDEUR OF THE GREAT HALL AROUND HER AND THAT WAS REALLY POWERFUL, REALLY, REALLY SPECIAL.

I THINK IT WAS IN READING ABOUT THAT, JUST A MARVELOUSLY TELLING EPITAPH PERHAPS FOR HER, THAT SHE WOULD GENERATE THAT TYPE OF EMOTIONAL CONNECTION, IT WAS OBVIOUS.

I GOT JUST ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT HERE FOR YOU.

THE LAST PART OF THE BOOK, I HATE TO ASK YOU THIS QUESTION WITH A MINUTE LEFT BUT THE LAST PART OF THE BOOK YOU SAY WAS A PART YOU NEVER INTENDED TO WRITE.

WHAT DID YOU WANT THAT LAST MESSAGE TO BE?

I HOPED SHE WOULD BE WITH US RIGHT NOW, MAYBE HEADED TOWARD RETIREMENT.

SHE'D WORKED EVERY DAY OF HER LIFE.

SHE DESERVED SOME TIME TO RELAX AND TO BE CELEBRATED.

UNFORTUNATELY THAT DID NOT COME TO PASS, BUT MY HOPE IS WITH THIS BOOK, TWO THINGS.

ONE, THAT IT WILL LEAD TO A GREAT CELEBRATION OF HER INCREDIBLE LEGACY, AND ALL THAT SHE ACCOMPLISHED, AND TWO, BUILDING ON THAT, THAT THE BOOK WILL INSPIRE PEOPLE TO PICK UP AND CARRY ON THAT WORK, AND CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR THE THINGS THAT WERE SO IMPORTANT TO HER.

I THINK AND AGAIN PROFESSOR AMANDA TYLER THE BOOK IS 'JUSTICE, JUSTICE, THOU SHALT PURSUE.'

THE LIFE'S WORK FIGHTING FOR A MORE PERFECT UNION.

I SAID THIS TO PEOPLE, I DON'T CARE WHAT'S YOUR POLITICS ARE, AND HOW YOU LOOK AT THE LAW.

THIS IS JUST A MARVELOUS TELLING OF THE STORY OF A MARVELOUS PERSON AND THE WORK SHE DID AND YOU DID A WONDERFUL JOB PUTTING IT TOGETHER.

THANK YOU FOR SPENDING TIME WITH US.

GOOD LUCK WITH THE BOOK AND LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING WITH YOU AGAIN REAL SOON.

'METROFOCUS' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELLE FOUNDATION, AND BY JANET PRINDLE SEIDLER, JODY AND JOHN ARNHOLD, CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, JUDY AND JOSH WESTON, DR. ROBERT C.

AND TINA SOHN FOUNDATION.

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