WNYC PODCAST: “BLINDSPOT: THE ROAD TO 9/11”

> WELCOME TO 'METROFOCUS.'

THE PLANE SEEMED TO EMERGE FROM THE SKY ON THE SEPTEMBER MORNING IN 2001.

THERE WAS A PATH THAT LEAD UP TO THE MORNING'S ATTACK.

WNYC'S LONG TIME REPORTER AND HOST TAKES US THROUGH THE PROCEEDING EVENTS LEADING UP TO THE MORNING.

IN A NEW EIGHT-PART POD CAST IN COLLABORATION WITH THE HISTORY CHANNEL 'THE ROAD TO 9/11.'

WELCOME, JIM.

THANK YOU.

IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE.

YES, WELL, THIS IS SUCH A FASCINATING POD CAST BECAUSE, OF COURSE, THERE'S SO MUCH WE DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND.

I WANT TO START WITH EVERYTHING AND BEGIN AT THE BEGINNING.

AS I MENTIONED IN THE INTRO, THE MEMORY IS ETCHED IN EVERYONE'S MIND WHO AT LEAST DEFINITELY EXPERIENCED IT OR HEARD ABOUT IT THAT MORNING.

THE BEGINNING OF THE POD CAST YOU TAKE US THROUGH YOUR EXPERIENCE OF THAT DAY.

WHERE WERE YOU WHEN 9/11 HAPPENED?

I WAS LIVING IN STATEN ISLAND IN A HOUSE ON A HILL RIGHT AT THE NORTHERN POINT OF THE ISLAND, AND I WOKE UP TO THE RADIO TALKING ABOUT THE NORTH TOWER BEING HIT.

SO I RAN OUT OUTSIDE TO A POINT ON THE HILL WHERE I COULD SEE NEW YORK HARBOR, AS I'M WATCHING, THE SECOND PLANE FLEW OVER MY HEAD AND I JUST SAW IT STREAK ACROSS THE HARBOR.

IT HIT THE SOUTH TOWER.

THIS WAS AT 9:03 IN THE MORNING.

BECAUSE I WAS A REPORTER AT THE TIME FOR THE 'NEW YORK TIMES,' I GRABBED A PEN AND NOTEBOOK AND RUSHED DOWN TO THE WATER FRONT TO TRY TO INTERVIEW PEOPLE.

WHAT I FOUND, TO MY SURPRISE, IS STUNNED SILENCE.

NOBODY HAD ANYTHING TO SAY BECAUSE WE COULDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WE WERE LOOKING AT.

EVERYONE WAS STARING AT THE SMOKE RISING UP FROM THE TOWERS.

THAT WAS A MAJOR FEATURE OF THE DAY.

JUST TRYING TO COMPREHEND WHAT IS HAPPENING TO US IN REAL TIME.

AND, OF COURSE, WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO DO THAT EVER SINCE IN THE 19 YEARS SINCE THEN.

THAT'S WHAT WE TRY TO DO, AS WELL, IN THE POD CAST.

TO CONNECT SOME DOTS AND MOVE US THROUGH EVENTS AND CHARACTERS THAT MADE THAT DAY HAPPEN

WELL, WHAT IS IT -- OF COURSE, WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT HAPPENED AFTERWARDS HAVE BEEN EXAMINED IN CRITICAL DETAIL.

-- YEAH.

AND EXHAUSTIVELY GONE THROUGH BOOKS.

WHAT IS LACKING FROM THE NATIONAL CONSCIOUSNESS ABOUT WHAT LEAD TO THE DAY.

OUR STORY COVERS THE 11 YEARS RIGHT BEFORE 9/11, AND IT'S REALLY A STORY.

IT'S PART OF THE STORY WE FOLLOW LAW ENFORCEMENT AS THEY TRY TO FIGURE OUT -- IT'S LIKE THEY'RE IN A CAR ON A FOGGY ROAD AT NIGHT.

THEIR HEADLIGHTS ARE INCHING FORWARD.

THEY KNOW THERE'S A THREAT OUT THERE.

THEY KNOW THERE'S AN EMERGING PROBLEM, BUT WE TRY TO PUT OURSELVES IN THEIR SHOES AT THAT TIME.

IT'S OBVIOUS TO US NOW, BUT WE TAKE THE POSITION OF THESE INVESTIGATORS TRYING DESPERATELY TO UNDERSTAND THE CONNECTIONS BETWEEN PEOPLE AND GROUPS, THEIR INTENTIONS, AND JUST HOW DANGEROUS THEY MIGHT BE.

A LOT OF THE STORY, THE FIRST HALF OF OUR STORY HAPPENS IN NEW YORK CITY IN DOWNTOWN BROOKLYN AND IN JERSEY CITY WHERE THESE CELLS OF GUYS FORMED AND STARTED MAKING THEIR BIG PLANS.

THESE WERE MOSTLY MEN WHO WERE VETERANS OF THE AFGHAN WAR THAT RAGED IN THE 1980s AFTER THE SOVIET UNION INVADED THAT COUNTRY AND RADICAL JIHADISTS FROM AROUND THE WORLD CONVERGED ON THAT WAR, IN THAT PLACE, AND WHEN IT WAS OVER IN 1989, THEY TURNED THEIR EYES TO OTHER TARGETS, REALLY, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES.

SO YOU'VE MENTIONED A LOT OF TH THINGS I FEEL LIKE MIGHT BE BELLS PEOPLE WOULD RECOGNIZE LIKE AFGHAN, AFGHAN WAR, JIHAD.

SO WE'VE HEARD THOSE THINGS BEFORE, BUT WHEN YOU TAKE -- WHEN THE STORY BEGINS 11 YEARS PRIOR TO THE ATTACK --

-- RIGHT.

WHY GO BACK TO THAT POINT?

WHAT WAS THE FLASH POINT TO BEGIN THE NARRATIVE?

YEAH, AGAIN, PUT YOURSELVES IN THE SHOES OF A DETECTIVE IN NEW YORK CITY AND WE TALKED TO ONE GUY.

HE'S OUT AT AN ITALIAN RESTAURANT IN HARLEM AND THE BEEPERS GO OFF.

THERE'S BEEN A SHOOTING AT A MIDTOWN MANHATTAN HOTEL.

THE MARRIOTT.

A RABBI HAS BEEN GUNNED DOWN.

THEN EVENTS UNFOLD AND THEY'RE TRYI TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IS THERE A BIGGER STORY HERE?

YES, THERE WAS BUT THEY COULDN'T SEE IT AT THE TIME.

THE RABBI WAS THE ULTRA NATIONALIST, ZIONIST WHO SPEWED HATRED FOR MUSLIMS IN HIS RHETORIC.

AND THE ASSASSIN WAS A MAN WHO HAD HIMSELF BEEN RADICALIZED BY SOME OF THESE JIHADISTS THAT HAD COME TO AMERICA TO PREACH AFTER THE END OF THE AFGHAN WAR.

SO HE TOOK IT UPON HIMSELF TO KILL THIS MAN AND WHAT LAW ENFORCEMENT DIDN'T QUITE UNDERSTAND WAS THAT HE WAS THE TIP OF THE SPHERE.

THAT THERE WERE OTHERS IN HIS CELL THAT WOULD GO ON TO COMMIT OTHER TERRORIST ACTS.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHEN HE WENT ON TRIAL, HE GOT A $20,000 DONATION TO HIS DEFENSE FUND FROM SOME, AT THE TIME, SHADOWY FINANCER OVERSEAS CALLED OSAMA BIN LADEN.

WOW.

AGAIN, THOSE ARE THE TYPE OF, LIKE, BREAD CRUMBS, IN HINDSIGHT, THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT COMPLETELY MAKE SENSE BUT THE PROCESS OF PUTTING IT TOGETHER.

SO YOU MENTIONED LAW ENFORCEMENT BUT, UMM, THERE WERE ALSO OTHER PLAYERS, I GUESS, PLAY A PROMINENT ROLE IN THE POD CAST AND ONE OF THEM, I THOUGHT, WAS INTERESTING.

A MAN NAMED -- I HOPE I PRONOUNCE HIS NAME CORRECTLY EMAD SALEM.

WHAT ROLE DID HE PLAY IN TRYING TO HELP UNRAVEL OR UNCLOUD WHAT WAS HAPPENING LEADING UP TO 9/11.

I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT HIM UP.

ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL TO THE STORY.

AMAZING MAN.

HE SHOULD BE BETTER KNOWN.

HE WAS AN EGYPTIAN ARMY OFFICER FOR 20 YEARS AND THEN HE EMIGRATED TO THE UNITED STATES.

AS THESE CELLS ARE FORMING IN DOWNTOWN BROOKLYN, AND IN JERSEY CITY, HE'S LIVING WITH HIS WIFE AND TWO KIDS ON THE UPPER WEST SIDE.

HE'S WORKING SECURITY IN A HOTEL.

ONE DAY THE FBI SAID TO HIM COULD YOU INFILTRATE THESE CELLS AND GIVE US AN IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON.

HE HAD NO IDEA ABOUT HIS BACK STORY, WHICH WAS HE WAS IN THE PARADE GROUND IN CAIRO ON THE DAY THAT THERE WAS AN ASSASSINATION.

IT AFFECTED HIM SO MUCH THAT HE SWORE IN HIS MIND TO GET REVENGE ON THE PERSON WHO SENT THAT ASSASSINATION INTO MOTION.

AS IT TURNS OUT, THE BLIND SHEIK WAS AN EGYPTIAN E MA'AM THAT DISTURBED HIM.

HE WAS ASKED TO INFILTRATE THE CELL.

HE HAD MOVED TO NEW JERSEY.

SO EMAD UNDERSTOOD THE METHODS.

HE UNDERSTOOD THE CULTURAL LEANINGS OF THESE PEOPLE.

HE GOT INSIDE AND HE STARTED TO GATHER INFORMATION ABOUT THE BIG PLOT THEY WERE PLANNING NEXT.

AND SO I'M GLAD YOU MENTIONED THE FACT THAT YOU HAD SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTOOD, WAS CULTURALLY SENSITIVE, LET'S SAY.

BECAUSE, OF COURSE, THE YEARS FOLLOWING THE SEPTEMBER 11th ATTACKS, EVERYTHING ABOUT THAT DAY, THOSE EVENTS HAS BECOME VERY, VERY CULTURALLY SENSITIVE.

ESPECIALLY FOR THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY.

I WOULD ASSUME THE POD CAST ALSO TAKES AIMS TO CLARIFY THESE ACTS OF POWER VERSUS ACTS OF RELIGION.

AM I MAKING A LEAP IN THAT ASSUMPTION?

YOU'RE NOT.

WE TAKE GREAT PAINS TO SEPARATE THESE FRINGE EXTREMISTS FROM MAIN STREAM ISLAM.

THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER.

THAT'S POINT NUMBER ONE.

AND, ALSO, ON THE OTHER SIDE THE WAY LAW ENFORCEMENT TRIES TO COUNTER TERRORISM, WHAT SALEM DID WAS VERY DIFFERENT THAN JUST SORT OF BLANKET SURVEILLANCE OF ENTIRE COMMUNITIES AND MOSQUES, WHICH HAS BEEN DEEMED LEGALLY PROBLEMATIC AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL, IN SOME CASES.

WITH HIM, THE FBI HAD PROBABLE CAUSE THERE WAS A GROUP OF MEN PLOTTING TO KILL CIVILIANS IN NEW YORK CITY.

THAT'S WHY HE WAS SENT INSIDE TO INFILTRATE.

IT'S A TRADITIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT TECHNIQUE.

LET'S JUST SEPARATE THAT FROM THE OTHER QUESTIONABLE TECHNIQUES THAT OCCURRED SINCE 9/11.

SALEM WAS WITH THE MEN WHO WERE PLANNING TO BOMB THE WORLD TRADE CENTER IN 1993.

BEFORE HE CAN GET THE DETAILS, AN FBI SUPERVISOR YANKED HIM OUT.

WE GO INTO WHY.

AFTER THE BOMBING, HE WAS SENT BACK IN TO THE CELL AND HE PREVENTED WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN A CATASTROPHIC ATTACK ON NEW YORK CITY.

IT WAS CALLED THE LANDMARKS PLOT.

FIVE BOMBS EXPLOITING SIMULTANEOUSLY IN THE HOLLAND TUNNEL, LINCOLN TUNNEL, GEORGE WASHINGTON BRIDGE, THE UNITED NATIONS.

ALL AROUND THE CITY.

THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE COULD HAVE DIED.

THIS EGYPTIAN EMIGRANT WHO LOVED AMERICA.

HE'S VERY SWEET AND PLAIN SPOKEN HOW GROWING UP IN CAIRO HE DEVELOPED A LOVE OF AMERICA OVER CHOCOLATE MILK, CHEDDAR CHEESE, AND THE AMERICAN FLAG.

HE WAS MOTIVATED BY PATRIOTISM FOR AMERICA AND REVENGE FOR THE KILLING AND THE END RESULT WAS FOILING THIS PLOT THAT COULD HAVE BEEN DEVASTATING IN THE HISTORY OF NEW YORK.

AND THAT'S PART OF OUR POD CAST.

WE TALK ABOUT WHAT DID HAPPEN AND WHAT DIDN'T HAPPEN AND HOW THEY RELATE TO EACH OTHER.

OF COURSE.

EVEN THOUGH 'BLIND SPOT' ISN'T THE TITLE, IT'S ABOUT THE MISSED UNITS.

IT'S THE THINGS THAT WERE SUCCESSFUL AND DIDN'T HAPPEN.

SO, JIM, I WANT TO SAY LISTENING TO EVERYTHING THAT YOU'RE LAYING OUT, AGAIN, THE BENEFIT OF HIND SIGHT DOES -- WE'RE IN A DIFFERENT PHASE NOW CULTURALLY, POLITICALLY, THE COUNTRY, AND, OF COURSE, NEW YORK CITY WHERE IT CAN FEEL A LOT LIKE THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT EVENTS THAT ARE HAPPENING.

ARE THEY COALESCING INTO SOMETHING OR ALL RANDOM, ET.

CETERA?

DO YOU FEEL AS THOUGH --

-- SORRY.

IS THERE SOMETHING FROM LISTENING TO THIS OR HAVING REPORTED OUT THE STORIES THAT YOU COULD APPLY TO WHERE WE ARE NOW OR IS THAT SOMETHING THAT IS GOING TO TAKE ANOTHER 19 OR 20 YEARS TO FULLY DIGEST AND UNDERSTAND?

YEAH, WELL, WE'VE HAD 19 YEARS.

WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE THE BEST OF WHAT WE KNOW AND IB -- INSIGHTS WE'VE GAINED.

JENNA, WHAT SURPRISED ME WAS EXAMINING THE MOTIVATIONS OF THESE MEN WHO DID 9/11, I WAS SURPRISED THAT RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS, FUNDAMENTALISTS, RELIGIO RELIGIOUS MOTIVATION PLAYED A ROLE, CERTAINLY.

THEY CLAIMED TO BE ACTING ON THE GUIDANCE OF ALLAH BUT THAT WAS RELATIVELY SMALL FROM WITHIN THIS FRINGE GROUP OF MEN COMPARED TO POLITICS AND POWER.

THESE MEN HAD A GRUDGE AGAINST THE UNITED STATES ON WHAT THEY TERMED IMPERIALISTIC GROUNDS.

THEY DESPISED THE UNITED STATES FOR PROPPING UP GOVERNMENTS IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES.

SAUDI ARABIA IN THE CASE O BIN LADEN.

WHO HAS THE POLITICAL GRUDGE AGAINST THE UNITED STATES AND WHAT MIGHT THEY DO ABOUT IT?

AND THEN IS NOW ONE OF THE -- AND I HAVE TO SAY MAJOR ASSETS AROUND THE WORLD HAS BEEN THIS FACE OF DEMOCRACY AND OF CIVIL RIGHTS AND OF TOLERANCE.

AND THE EXTEND THAT TARNISHED IT HURTS US OVERSEAS MAKES US SEEM VULNERABLE TO OUR OPPONENTS.

SOMEONE POINTED OUT AFTER THE COLD WAR, THE UNITED STATES SEEMED TO UNCHECK THE POWER.

IF PEOPLE IN OTHER COUNTRIES PERCEIVE THAT WE ARE A BULLY AND WE ARE NOT COLLABORATING WITH OTHER COUNTRIES AND ACTING AS IF WE RUN THE WORLD, THAT HAS A TENDENCY TO PROVOKE A REACTION, IN THIS CASE, A VIOLENT REACTION AND ULTIMATELY THE TRAGEDY OF 9/11, WHICH IS NOT TO SAY WE ARE RESPONSIBLE AT ALL, BUT THIS IS THE CONTEXT.

THESE ARE THE CONDITIONS WHEN FANATICS DECIDE WHAT TARGET TO STRIKE AGAINST.

OF COURSE.

AND THE GENIUS OF GOOD REPORTING IS LETTING PEOPLE KNOW NOTHING HAPPENS IN A VACUUM.

JIM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BRINGING US THE POD CAST SERIES 'BLIND SPOT: THE ROAD TO 9/11.'

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SUBSCRIBE AND FOLLOW THE POD CAST, YOU.

YOU CAN FIND IT FROM WNYC STUDIOS ANYWHERE YOU SUBSCRIBE TO POD CASTS.

THANK YOU, JIM.

THANK YOU, JENNA.

ABSOLUTELY.