MetroFocus: June 10, 2020

The protests over George Floyd’s death in police custody have ignited what some are calling the next civil rights movement. And as the country searches for permanent solutions to larger social and racial problems permeating through society, we’re also reminded of another movement in our nation’s history that was both radical and often misunderstood. The Black Panthers fought racial oppression in the late 60s and 70s, serving as a catalyst for societal change while also at times resorting to violence. For a closer look at the movement’s complicated history, we’ll be joined by award-winning filmmaker, Stanley Nelson to explain the history of the Black Panthers’ rise and downfall and share his perspective on why George Floyd’s death has driven so many Americans to rise up in protest. Stanley’s documentary, “The Black Panthers: Vanguard of the Revolution,” is streaming on PBS and also re-airing this week on Independent Lens on Thirteen and WLIW.

The coronavirus outbreak has changed the way we work in the short-term, but will it have lasting effects on workplaces of the future? Anat Lechner, a professor of Management and Organizations at NYU Stern, studies how businesses handle disruption.  She says the movement toward working from home when possible, the elimination of some jobs and creation of others, and the advent of new methods for employee interaction may all lead to a completely different work landscape.

TRANSCRIPT

THIS IS 'METROFOCUS' WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD, AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

'METROFOCUS' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY JAMES AND MERRYL TISCH, SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

BERNARD AND IRENE SCHWARTZ, ROSALIND P. WALTER, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY --

> GOOD EVENING.

I'M RAFAEL PI ROMAN.

WELCOME TO 'METROFOCUS.'

YOU KNOW, THE PROTESTS OVER GEORGE FLOYD'S DEATH IN POLICE CUSTODY HAVE IGNITED WHAT SOME HAVE CALLED THE NEXT CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

AS WE SEARCH FOR PERMANENT SOLUTIONS TO SYSTEMIC SOCIAL AND RACIAL PROBLEMS WE ARE REMINDED OF ANOTHER MOVEMENT IN OUR NATION'S HISTORY THAT WAS BOTH RADICAL AND OFTEN MISUNDERSTOOD.

THE BLACK PANTHER PARTY FOUGHT RACIAL OPPRESSION IN THE LATE 1960s AND '70s SERVING AS A CATALYST FOR SOCIETAL CHANGE WHILE ALSO AT TIMES RESORTING TO VIOLENCE.

THE COMPLICATED HISTORY IS AT THE HEART OF THE DOCUMENTARY 'THE BLACK PANTHERS VANGUARD OF THE REVOLUTION' WHICH IS NOW STREAMING ON PBS AND REAIRING ON INDEPENDENT LENS THIS WEEK ON THIRTEEN AND WLIW.

PEABODY AND EMMY AWARD WINNING FILMMAKER STANLEY NELSON WROTE, PRODUCED AND DIRECTED THE FILM AND JOINS US NOW.

WE WELCOME YOU BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU, GREAT TO SEE.

YOU ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE YOU.

LISTEN, I WAS GOING TO LEAVE THIS TO THE END BUT I'M GOING TO SAY IT AT THE BEGINNING.

I GOT TO WATCH THE FILM FOR THE FOURTH TIME IN PREPARATION FOR THIS INTERVIEW AND THIS TIME BECAUSE I KNOW THE CONTENT SO WELL I WAS ABLE TO FOCUS ON THE CRAFT AND IT'S JUST MASTERFUL.

IT'S JUST MASTERFUL.

I HADN'T EVEN NOTICED THAT YOU DIDN'T HAVE A NARRATOR BEFORE.

RIGHT.

I MEAN, THERE'S SO MANY THINGS AND I URGE ALL OF YOU FILMMAKERS, WANT TO BE FILMMAKERS, TO DVR THIS DOCUMENTARY AND STUDY BECAUSE THIS IS A DOCUMENTARY THAT IS WELL DONE.

ALL RIGHT.

THAT IS MY UNSOLICITED TESTIMONIAL, STANLEY.

LET ME START WITH THE QUESTIONS.

YOU KNOW, THOSE OF US OF A CERTAIN AGE ARE PROBABLY PRETTY FAMILIAR WITH THE BLACK PANTHERS, THOSE OF US WHO WERE PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT THEY WERE DOING AS A MOMENT IN HISTORY, BUT I THINK A LOT OF OUR YOUNGER VIEWERS ARE PROBABLY MORE -- KNOW MORE ABOUT THEIR MYTH THAN THEIR REALITY.

RIGHT.

WHAT'S THE REALITY THAT YOU WANTED TO CONVEY IN YOUR FILM?

WELL, I THINK THAT YOU'RE PROBABLY RIGHT, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THE MYTH AND, YOU KNOW, I WAS A RAT, I WAS A YOUNG GUY WHEN THE PANTHERS CAME INTO BEING IN 1966, BUT, YOU KNOW, MY MEMORY OF HOW WE LOOKED AT THE PANTHERS WAS VERY DIFFERENT THAN HOW THEY'VE DOWN IN HISTORY.

YOU KNOW, THIS HE HAD A BUNCH OF SOCIAL PROGRAMS AND, YOU KNOW, THAT THEY WERE ALIGNED IN MANY WAYS WITH THE ANTI-WAR MOVEMENT AND THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT AND THEY WEREN'T OUT THERE BY THEMSELVES, THERE WAS SO MUCH MORE TO THE PANTHERS THAN BLACK RADICALISM AND VIOLENCE.

YOU KNOW, WE WANTED TO GIVE THAT IDEA TO PEOPLE SO THEY COULD, YOU KNOW, SEE FOR THEMSELVES.

I THINK SO MANY TIMES, YOU KNOW, THESE MOVEMENTS ARE MOMENTS IN HISTORY COME DOWN TO KIND OF, YOU KNOW, THIS MYTH AND WE FORGET THE REALITY.

SO WE WERE JUST TRYING TO TALK ABOUT THE REALITY OF THE PANTHERS AND WE ALSO WANTED TO TALK TO WHAT THEY CALLED THE RANK AND FILE, YOU KNOW, MEMBERS.

YOU KNOW, THE PANTHERS WAS NOT -- WERE NOT ALL HUEY NEWTON AND, YOU KNOW, ELDRIDGE CLEAVER AND BOBBY SEALE AND ELAINE BROWN, THEY WERE ALSO, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO JOINED THE PANTHERS, YOU KNOW, SO WE WANTED TO SAY WHY DID YOU JOIN THE PANTHERS?

WHY DID YOU STAY IN THE PANTHERS?

WHAT DID YOU DO IN THE PANTHERS AND WHY DID YOU LEAVE?

AND SO THAT MADE UP IN SOME WAYS A LOT OF THE BACKBONE OF THE FILM.

SO WHAT CAN BLACK LIVES MATTER AND THE OTHER SOCIAL MOVEMENTS WHO HAVE TAKEN TO THE STREETS, ARE PROTESTING SINCE THE DEATH OF GEORGE FLOYD, WHAT CAN THEY LEARN FROM THE EXPERIENCE OF THE PANTHERS?

THERE'S SO MUCH THEY CAN LEARN, GOOD AND BAD, AND WE TRY TO SHOW ALL THAT IN THE FILM.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE PANTHERS WERE REALLY GREAT AT IS SEIZING THE MEDIA, YOU KNOW, AND KIND OF TAKING OVER THE MEDIA AND GETTING THEIR MESSAGE ACROSS.

THEY WERE REALLY GREAT AT THAT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY WERE BAD AT IS THAT THEIR MESSAGE HAD TO KIND OF ESCALATE, CONTINUE TO ESCALATE.

THAT WAS SO THEIR MESSAGE, YOU KNOW, MIGHT HAVE STARTED OUT HERE, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT DIDN'T PREACH MORE AND MORE AND MORE RADICAL VIOLENCE AND KIND OF BACKED THEM INTO A CORNER THAT WAS VERY HARD FOR THEM TO GET OUT OF.

YOU KNOW, SO THAT WAS A CRUCIAL -- I THINK ALSO, YOU KNOW, FOR BETTER OR WORSE THE PANTHERS WERE VERY MUCH DRIVEN BY PERSONALITIES, BY THEIR LEADERS, AND THAT WAS GREAT IN THE BEGINNING AND SLOGANISM, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD SAY FREE HUEY WHEN NOBODY REALLY KNEW WHO HUEY WAS, YOU KNOW, LET'S FREE HUEY.

ELDRIDGE CLEAVER, YOU KNOW, COULD BE THIS GREAT SPOKESMAN AND SPEAKER AND THERE WERE OTHERS, KATHLEEN CLEAVER, ELAINE BROWN, SO MANY OTHERS, BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHAT HAPPENS AND WHAT YOU SEE IN THE FILM IS AS THESE LEADERS STARTED TO FALTER THEN THE MOVEMENT STARTED TO FALTER BECAUSE IT WAS SO BASED ON THESE LEADERS.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S HAPPENING TODAY AND THIS IS A CONSCIOUS CHOICE AND A LOT OF -- A LOT OF TIMES WE DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT THERE IS A CONSCIOUS CHOICE FOR THIS ALMOST TO BE A LEADERLESS MOVEMENT, YOU KNOW, THERE IS NOT ONE OR TWO OR THREE PEOPLE THAT, YOU KNOW, WE CAN SAY, OKAY, THOSE ARE THE LEADERS, YOU KNOW.

IF YOU HAD TO NAME WHO THE LEADERS ARE, I WOULD CHALLENGE ANYBODY TO NAME THEM.

AND I THINK THAT THAT MAY BE A PROBLEM BECAUSE IT'S AN UNTESTED WAY TO HAVE A MOVEMENT, BUT IT ALSO CAN BE SOMETHING THAT REALLY WORKS IN THIS MOVEMENT'S FAVOR BECAUSE THERE'S NOBODY, YOU KNOW, TO BRING THE MOVEMENT DOWN IF THEY --

STRUGGLES.

SO WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS, BUT I THINK WHAT'S MORE IMPORTANT IS THAT RIGHT NOW THIS MOVEMENT HAS TAKEN OFF, THAT, YOU KNOW, THE MULTITUDE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE CONTRIBUTING AND LEADING IT, YOU KNOW, I WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, I'M GOING TO BACK UP AND LET THEM DO WHAT THEY'RE DOING BECAUSE THEY SEEM -- IT SEEMS TO BE REALLY WORKING AND THEY SEEM TO BE DOING IT REALLY, REALLY WELL.

SO WHO AM I TO SAY, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A DIFFERENT WAY TO DO IT.

I THINK THEY'RE RIGHT ON AND WHAT THEY'VE DONE IS AMAZING.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE LESSONS -- IT'S FUNNY YOU SHOULD MENTION ALL THAT BECAUSE THAT WAS GOING TO BE ONE OF MY BIG QUESTIONS, ONE OF MY BIG POINTS AND YOU JUMPED RIGHT TO IT, BUT THE OTHER BIG LESSON I THINK THAT IS OFTEN FORGOTTEN IS TO NEVER UNDERESTIMATE HOW MUCH THE POWERS THAT BE, THE STATE, WILL USE ITS POWER --

RIGHT.

-- WHEN THREATENED, RIGHT?

WHEN THE STATUS QUO IS THREATENED.

RIGHT.

BECAUSE THAT ESSENTIALLY, ALL ELSE ASIDE, THAT ESSENTIALLY, THAT ALL OUT WAR AGAINST THE PANTHERS IS WHAT ULTIMATELY UNDID THEM, RIGHT?

RIGHT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, AGAIN, IF YOU SEE THE FILM, YOU KNOW, WE TALK ABOUT ALL THAT AND THE PANTHERS TALK ABOUT ALL THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT THERE WERE INFILL DATERS IN THE MOVEMENT, YOU KNOW, AND WE'RE SEEING THAT NOW, BUT THE FBI, YOU KNOW, THEY SAID THAT THIS IS OUR MAIN GOAL.

THIS IS OUR MAIN GOAL.

OUR MAIN GOAL IS NOT FOREIGN POWERS, OUR MAIN GOAL IS NOT TERRORISM, OUR MAIN GOAL IS TO DESTROY THE PANTHERS AND THEY HAD THEIR PHONES BUGGED, THEY HAD INFILTRATORS, THE INFILTRATORS WOULD SAY, HEY, I SAW YOUR HUSBAND WITH ANOTHER WOMAN.

ANYTHING THAT THEY COULD DO TO CAUSE DISSENSION IN THE RANKS.

WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT AND THIS WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES THOSE TACTICS WERE USED.

SO THE PANTHERS IN MANY WAYS DIDN'T KIND OF UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO THEM.

YOU KNOW, THEY KNEW THAT SOMETHING WAS HAPPENING, BUT NOBODY UNDERSTOOD THAT, YOU KNOW, THE FBI AND THE POWERS THAT BE COULD BE SO SINISTER, BUT ALSO SO PETTY, YOU KNOW.

NOBODY UNDERSTOOD THAT.

SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE ARE CLEARER ABOUT WHAT CAN HAPPEN, BUT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ENTERING -- WE'VE ENTERED INTO A WAY NEW AGE OF SURVEILLANCE, OF DIFFERENT WAYS THAT THINGS CAN HAPPEN AND NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWERS THAT BE.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S HAPPENING IN THE MOMENT THAT WE'RE LIVING IN NOW IS THE POWERS THAT BE ARE SAYING, YOU KNOW, GIVING THE MOVEMENT ITS HEAD.

IT'S LIKE YOU GIVE A HORSE, YOU KNOW, IT'S REINS, GO AHEAD, I HAVE TO LET YOU RUN, I CAN'T STOP YOU.

I'M GOING TO LET YOU RUN AND THEN I'LL STEP IN.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU THINK THAT -- THAT YOU CAN DEFUND THE POLICE WITHOUT AN ORGANIZED OBJECTION FROM THE POLICE, THEN YOU'RE WRONG.

YOU KNOW, THE POLICE AND THE POLICE UNIONS ARE VERY, VERY ORGANIZED AND WILL DO ANYTHING, YOU KNOW, TO HOLD ON TO THE POWER THAT THEY HAVE AND THE MONEY THAT THEY HAVE.

SO I THINK THERE WILL BE, YOU KNOW, A STRONG -- IT'S NOT EVEN A BACKLASH -- A STRONG COUNTER TO WHAT'S GOING ON NOW AND I THINK IN SOME WAYS WE'RE LIVING IN SUCH A STRONG MOMENT THAT -- THAT, YOU KNOW, THE POWERS THAT BE ARE JUST KIND OF LETTING PEOPLE HAVE THEIR REIGN.

YOU DON'T SEE A LOT OF DONALD TRUMP RIGHT NOW.

YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T SEE HIM.

YOU KNOW, HE DOES HIS LITTLE TWEETS BECAUSE HE CAN'T HELP HIMSELF, BUT AT SOME POINT, YOU KNOW, THEY WILL REEMERGE.

YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED BACKLASH AND I WAS THINKING BECAUSE I WAS THERE, TO REMEMBER IT ALL, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED AS A RESULT OF THE TUMULT OF THE 1960s IN PARTICULAR, THE VIOLENCE AND TUMULT OF 1968 WAS IN PART -- IN PART IT LED TO THE ELECTION OF RICHARD NIXON, RIGHT, AND THE FAMOUS BACKLASH.

RIGHT.

AND THE RISE OF GEORGE WALLACE AS A PROMINENT NATIONAL FIGURE.

I WONDER IF YOU SEE -- IF YOU CAN ELABORATE, I GUESS, IF YOU SEE THAT THAT COULD BE A THREAT TO THIS -- TO THE DEMONSTRATIONS AND THE PROTESTS NOW.

YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK THERE IS ALREADY A BACKLASH, I THINK PEOPLE ARE STEELING THEMSELVES TO FIGHT IT AND BACKLASH.

YOU KNOW, I JUST -- YOU KNOW, WENT TO CAPE COD THE OTHER DAY AND, YOU KNOW, WE WERE COMING OFF THE HIGHWAY AND THERE WAS A BIG TRUMP RALLY, YOU KNOW, WHICH WAS -- WHICH WAS, YOU KNOW, JUST -- IT'S SCARY BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE YOU RALLYING AGAINST, YOU KNOW?

I MEAN, ARE YOU RALLYING AGAINST THE FACT THAT A COP, YOU KNOW, SAT ON A GUY'S NECK FOR ALMOST NINE MINUTES UNTIL HE WAS DEAD?

IS THAT WRONG?

YOU KNOW, LIKE WHAT IS IT?

BUT I THINK -- I THINK THERE WILL BE, YOU KNOW, A STRONG -- A STRONG BACKLASH.

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW -- WHAT I THINK WHAT'S IMPORTANT IS THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE INVOLVED AND ARE GETTING OUT THERE IN THE STREETS CONTINUE TO DO THAT AND THAT YOUNG PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE ARE INVOLVED IN A MOVEMENT FOR THE FIRST TIME, YOU KNOW, AND THEY -- THE POLITICALNESS OF THEIR LIVES WILL STAY THERE, YOU KNOW?

IT'S NOT LIKE, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THEM -- SOME OF THEM WILL JUST GO BACK TO THEIR JOBS AND NEVER, YOU KNOW, NEVER SAY ANOTHER WORD, BUT MANY OF THEM WILL BE POLITICIZED FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S IMPORTANT.

I THINK ONCE YOU SEE THAT SOMETHING IS WRONG IN THIS COUNTRY, ONCE YOUR EYES ARE OPENED, IT'S LIKE SOMEONE SAYS IN THE -- ONE OF THE FIRST LINES IN THE PANTHERS, ONCE YOU SEE IT, YOU CAN'T UNLEARN IT.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW, PEOPLE ARE SEEING IT AND I DON'T THINK THEY WILL BE ABLE TO UNLEARN IT.

SO WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT LEGACY OF THE PANTHERS FOR US TODAY?

I THINK THE PANTHERS MAIN LEGACY IS CULTURAL.

THE PANTHERS CHANGED THE WAY WE RESPOND AS AFRICAN-AMERICANS.

YOU KNOW, I WAS BORN, YOU KNOW, IN 1951 SO FOR THE FIRST 15 YEARS OF MY LIFE I NEVER EVER SAW A BLACK MAN PUT HIS FINGER IN A WHITE MAN'S FACE AND SAY, NO, NO, NO.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED.

YOU KNOW, SO, YOU KNOW, WE NEVER SAW THAT.

THE PANTHERS WERE IN YOUR FACE AND SAID, NO, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T HAVE TO WAIT AND THAT'S WHERE WE ARE.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT'S A LEGACY.

THE LEGACY IS MAINLY CULTURAL.

> HI, I'M MADDIE ORTON.

THE CORONAVIRUS OUTBREAK HAS CHANGED THE WAY WE WORK IN THE SHORT-TERM, BUT WILL IT HAVE LONG-TERM EFFECTS ON THE WORKPLACES OF THE FUTURE?

I'M SPEAKING WITH ANAT LECHNER, PROFESSOR OF MANAGEMENT AND ORGANIZATIONS AT NYU STERN.

ANAT, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

SO FIRST WHY DON'T WE START OFF WITH SORT OF AN EXPLANATION OF WHAT YOUR PARTICULAR AREA OF FOCUS IS.

YEAH, I SPECIALIZE IN CHANGE MANAGEMENT, THIS IS A FIELD THAT SPROUTED OVER THE PAST TWO DECADES, TO BECOME NATURALLY MUCH MORE RELEVANT, ESPECIALLY FOR TIMES LIKE NOW.

I LOOK AT CHANGE MANAGEMENT, INNOVATION, DESTRUCTION AND ORGANIZATION.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CHANGE MANAGEMENT, OBVIOUSLY THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH CHANGE IN THE WAY WE WORK.

NOW, YOU'VE SAID THAT THE CORONAVIRUS OUTBREAK HAS ONLY ACCELERATED CHANGES THAT WERE ALREADY ON THE HORIZON FOR WORKPLACES.

CORRECT.

THERE ARE CHANGES WE ARE UNDERGOING AND THEY'VE BEEN GOING FOR A WHILE.

THEY'VE BEEN COOKING AND BREWING FOR A WHILE.

THE CORONAVIRUS CRISIS IS JUST THE CATALYST, IT JUST DRIVES THINGS FASTER.

WE FOUND OURSELVES WORKING FROM HOME, THERE WERE MANY DEBATES BEFORE THAT ON HOW MUCH CAN WE DO AND WHETHER WE WILL BE PRODUCTIVE DOING SO.

SUDDENLY WE WERE FORCED TO AND SO I THINK THAT THE NUMBERS THAT WE GET TO SEE IS ABOUT 80% OF THE PEOPLE AT ONE POINT WORKED FROM HOME IN THE PAST FEW WEEKS AND WE'RE DOING QUITE OKAY.

SO I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT WE'RE ALL SO PRODUCTIVE, BUT WE -- QUITE FAST -- DRIVES US TO DO SO.

SHORT-TERM CHANGES ARE GOING TO CONTINUE EVEN AS WORKFORCES AND STATES START TO REOPEN THEIR VARIOUS BUSINESSES, BUT IN THE STILL SOMEWHAT SHORT-TERM PERIOD LOOKING OVER THE NEXT YEAR, LET'S SAY, DO YOU THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO STILL ADJUST TO WORKING REMOTELY IN MAYBE A SMOOTHER MORE SEAMLESS FASHION?

I WOULD SAY YES.

I THINK THAT WE HAVE FOR ONE NOT MUCH OF A CHOICE, ALL THE DISCUSSION ON SOCIAL DISTANCING AND THE ABILITY TO -- HOW MANY PEOPLE CAN BE, YOU KNOW, TRAVELING TOGETHER IN AN ELEVATOR, HOW MANY PEOPLE CAN SIT IN A CLASSROOM TOGETHER, HOW MANY PEOPLE CAN SIT IN AN OFFICE TOGETHER.

WE REALIZE THAT THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE HAVE IS BASED ON SEVERAL ASSUMPTIONS AND THE NEED THAT WE HAVE AT THE MOMENT BASED ON WHAT WE KNOW AND HOW TO MANAGE THIS EPIDEMIC CRISIS REQUIRE THAT WE WILL DISTANCE OURSELVES FROM ONE ANOTHER, REQUIRE THAT WE WILL BE ABLE TO FUNCTION TOGETHER IN A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT WAY.

SO THE NOTION THAT SOME OF US WILL CONTINUE TO WORK FROM HOME OR THAT THERE WILL BE SOME SORT OF A, YOU KNOW, ALT NATION FROM THOSE WHO WORK FROM HOME AND WORK FROM THE OFFICE THIS OBVIOUSLY WILL NEED TO CONTINUE, BUT I WILL SAY ONE MORE THING, WE ARE REALIZING THAT THERE ARE QUITE A NUMBER OF BENEFITS WORKING FROM HOME AND WE ARE ACTUALLY ABLE TO COLLABORATE NOT WITH SOME CHALLENGES AND NOT WITH SOME NEED TO LEARN, BUT WE ARE ABLE TO COLLABORATE AND WE ARE ABLE TO WORK REMOTELY AND TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE I'M SEEING ORGANIZATIONS RETHINKING THE IDEA OF BRINGING EVERYBODY BACK TO THE OFFICE WHEN THINGS ARE FINE.

THERE WERE A FEW BANKS IN NEW YORK THAT JUST A COUPLE WEEKS AGO ANNOUNCED THAT SOME OF THEIR EMPLOYEES WILL NEVER RETURN TO THE OFFICE.

SO THERE IS LEARNING WITH WORKING REMOTELY AND SOME OF IT IS ACTUALLY VERY POSITIVE, AT LEAST IF YOU THINK ON THE ECONOMICS OF HOW WE WORK.

THERE'S ALSO A RETHINKING, TOO, OF THE BALANCE OF POWER BETWEEN WORKERS AND BETWEEN COMPANIES, CERTAINLY THERE ARE WORKERS WHO ARE NOW DEEMED AS ESSENTIAL WHEN WE LOOK AT GROCERY STORE EMPLOYEES, FOR EXAMPLE, WHO ARE BEING LAUDED FOR THEIR WORK IN A WAY THAT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN PREVIOUSLY.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S GOING TO BE A CONTINUED SORT OF THING?

WILL WE SEE BETTER PAY FOR THESE NEWLY DEEMED ESSENTIAL WORKERS?

I HOPE SO.

I HOPE THAT PEOPLE WILL RECOGNIZE WHAT ESSENTIAL MEANS AND THE STATUS THAT COMES WITH WORK AND DIFFERENT TYPE JOBS MIGHT SHIFT EVER SO SLIGHTLY, BUT WE MIGHT ALSO THINK MORE CYNICALLY THAT THIS IS A VERY ROMANTIC VIEW AND ONCE WE GO BACK TO A NEW NORMAL WHATEVER THAT MEANS AND WHENEVER THAT HAPPENS, WE MIGHT SEE AUTOMATION COMING TO SOME OF THESE JOBS OPPOSED TO A BETTER PAYCHECK.

SO WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE SOME COMPANIES THAT ARE KIND OF PLAYING WITH TECHNOLOGY, VISUAL, FACIAL RECOGNITION AND TECHNOLOGIES OF SUCH THAT YOU WILL NO LONGER NEED TO HAVE SOMEBODY SITTING BY A CASHIER OR SOMEPLACE.

SO THE CHANCE THAT WE WILL SEE AUTOMATION COMING BEFORE A BETTER PAYCHECK AND A BETTER STABILITY IN THESE TYPE JOBS, IN MY OPINION UNFORTUNATELY SEEM TO BE HIGHER.

AT LEAST MAYBE NOT IN THE IMMEDIATE TERM, BUT IN THE COUPLE OF -- COUPLE MORE YEARS DOWN THE ROAD.

UNEMPLOYMENT IS ALSO OBVIOUSLY GOING TO BE A HUGE PROBLEM MOVING FORWARD, BUT FOR THOSE WHO ARE GOING TO BE IN A POSITION WHERE THEY'RE ABLE TO SEEK NEW JOBS AND THERE ARE JOBS TO BE SOUGHT, DO YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE LOOKING FOR A NEW POSITION ARE GOING TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HOW EMPLOYERS HANDLED THEIR EMPLOYEES DURING THIS PERIOD OF CRISIS?

THIS IS AN INTERESTING AND PRETTY LOADED QUESTION.

SO ON ONE END YOU CAN LISTEN TO PREDICTIONS FROM THE INTERNATIONAL LABOR ORGANIZATION AND THEY HAD THE VERY SOMBER PREDICTION ANNOUNCED A COUPLE WEEKS AGO THAT SAID THAT IN THE NEAR YEARS, THEY DIDN'T REALLY TIME IT PRECISELY, BUT AS A RESULT OF THE CORONAVIRUS CRISIS, REBUILDING PEOPLE ARE AT RISK OF LOSING THEIR HIGHLY HOOD.

MORE THAN HALF OF THE WORKFORCE.

WHEN YOU LISTEN TO A NUMBER LIKE THIS IT MAKES YOU REALLY THINK HOW SELECTIVE WE WILL BE AND THERE IS A CHANCE THAT WE WILL JUST TAKE ANY WORK THAT'S THERE, BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT WE CAN CHOOSE, I THINK THE TIMES OF CRISIS GIVE US A TREMENDOUS INSIGHT TO WHAT GOOD BEHAVIOR LOOKS LIKE, WHAT GOOD BEHAVIOR SHOULD LOOK LIKE AND WE WILL REMEMBER THE GOOD, WE WILL REMEMBER THE BAD AND THERE ARE CEOs, FOR INSTANCE, THE CEO OF AIRBNB THAT HAD TO LAY OFF A QUARTER OF THEIR PEOPLE THAT HAVE DONE THIS IN THE UTMOST HUMANE WAY.

EXPLAINING WHY THIS IS HAPPENING.

HELPING THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE TO TRANSITION OUT.

PRAISING THEM AND TELLING THE MARKET YOU ARE ABOUT TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO HIRE THE BEST EMPLOYEES THAT WE QUALIFIED THROUGH OUR SYSTEM OVER THE PAST LITTLE WHILE AND NOW WE NEED TO UNFORTUNATELY LET GO BECAUSE OF THE FINANCIAL SITUATION.

PEOPLE LISTEN TO THIS.

PEOPLE REMEMBER THIS KIND OF THING.

IF THEY CHOOSE THEN THEY MIGHT SELECT TO WORK FOR THESE ORGANIZATIONS THAT HANDLED THE CRISIS IN A HUMANE AND, YOU KNOW, WELL DONE WAY.

IT'S JUST THE QUESTION OVERALL IS WHETHER WE WILL BE ABLE TO CHOOSE.

THERE ARE CERTAINLY MANY JOBS THAT ARE GOING AWAY, BUT ARE THERE NEW JOBS, FOR EXAMPLE, CONTACT TRACERS, THAT ARE RISING FOR PEOPLE TO KEEP IN PLACE AT LEAST SOME OF THOSE LOST JOBS?

YES, WE SEE THAT.

WE SEE THAT CONTACT TRACING IS ONE OPPORTUNITY.

WE ARE NOT YET UNDERSTANDING THIS BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T SEEN THE MAGNITUDE OF THE CRISIS THAT IS STILL UNFOLDING.

BUT I THINK THE JOBS IN THIS AREA WILL DEFINITELY BE COMING FORTH AND DEFINITELY JOBS THAT WILL INVOLVE CARE, VERY IMPORTANT ELEMENT.

IT'S MENTIONED IN OTHER CONTEXT AS WELL AS AS SOME OF THE JOBS OF THE FUTURE, BUT WE HAVE SEEN A LOT OF NEEDS FOR PEOPLE WITHIN THE COMMUNITY THAT CANNOT REALLY HELP THEMSELVES SO WELL, I'M NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE EMPLOYEES, JUST CARE, PERIOD.

THE ELDERLY IS NOT A SEGMENT THAT WAS ABLE TO HELP THEMSELVES SO WELL DURING THIS CRISIS AND WAS HELPED JUST ORGANICALLY THROUGH A LOT OF COMMUNITY VOLUNTEERING.

CAN THERE BE JOBS IN THIS SPACE?

I THINK ABSOLUTELY.

WILL WE SEE GROWTH IN THIS AREA?

ABSOLUTELY.

PEOPLE THAT NEED TO LEARN DISTANTLY, NOT ALWAYS HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO SO VERY WELL.

WILL WE SEE TUTORING COMING, ABSOLUTELY.

THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES FOR NEW JOBS TO RISE JUST BECAUSE OF THE CONDITION THAT WE ALL FOUND OURSELVES IN.

IF YOU ARE JUST JOINING US I'M MADDIE ORTON, I'M SPEAKING WITH ANAT LECHNER, PROFESSOR OF MANAGEMENT AND ORGANIZATIONS AT NYU STERN.

AND NOW LET'S LOOK AT A LITTLE BIT FURTHER LONG-TERM.

YOU HAVE SAID THAT THIS PERIOD OF REBUILDING THAT WE ARE ABOUT TO ENTER INTO IT ALMOST ANALOGOUS TO THE REBUILDING AND REIMAGINING OF WORK AFTER WORLD WAR II.

CAN YOU TALK TO ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT?

YES, I THINK THAT IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S -- WHAT'S GOING ON, THERE IS A LITTLE COLLAPSE THAT'S HAPPENING THAT'S BEYOND ACTUALLY THE UNBELIEVABLY SAD AND DRAMATIC HEALTH CRISIS THAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING.

THERE IS COLLAPSE OF SYSTEMS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT IN PLACE OVER 70 SOME YEARS FROM RELATIONSHIPS WITH NATIONS TO SUPPLY CHAIN MANAGEMENT AND OTHER -- AND WE SEE SHALL I CALL IT THE BIG COLLAPSE.

ONE THING AFTER ANOTHER IS BEING CHALLENGED.

I THINK THAT THE REBUILDING OF THE -- WILL TAKE SOME TIME BECAUSE WE NEED TO INVENT.

IT'S NOT BUILDING REBUILD.

IT'S NOT SIMPLE RECOVERY.

WE NEED TO INVENT HOW WE WORK IN THE FUTURE.

WHO WE WORK WITH IN THE FUTURE.

WHAT TECHNOLOGY ARE WE RELYING ON?

WHAT IS THE PLACE THAT HUMANS ARE STILL NEEDED FOR?

THERE IS A LOT OF -- A LOT OF INVENTING, NOT EVEN REINVENTING, SIMPLY INVENTING THE NEW.

THE OLD IS COLLAPSING AND WE ARE EXPERIENCING THAT AND WE'RE SEEING IT IN TREMENDOUS ANXIETY TO VERY MANY PEOPLE FOR ALL THE OBVIOUS REASONS, BUT WHAT IS THE NEW THAT COMES TO REPLACE IT?

THIS IS GOING TO BE A PRETTY LONG BUILD.

SO THE CRISIS IS THE CATALYST IN THAT SENSE BECAUSE IT HELPS US RID OURSELVES OF SYSTEMS THAT ARE PERHAPS BEEN AT THEIR LAST MILE AND NO LONGER SERVING US WELL.

IF IT'S SOCIAL SYSTEMS, IF IT'S HEALTH SYSTEMS, IF IT'S INTERNATIONAL RELATIONSHIPS AND SO ON AND SO FORTH, THIS IS ALL GOING.

I'M NOT GOING TO SAY ALL, BUT, YOU KNOW, THE MAJORITY OF THINGS ARE NO LONGER WORKING AND WE SEE THAT, BUT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WILL REPLACE IT.

SO THE REPLACING IS THINGS THAT WE WILL NEED TO BUILD AND WE WILL NEED TO INVENT AND THAT WILL TAKE TIME TO INVENT, IT WILL TAKE TIME TO BUILD.

IN MANY WAYS IT'S ALSO GOING TO GIVE US NEW OPPORTUNITIES THAT WE CURRENTLY DO NOT SEE.

NEW OPPORTUNITIES FOR NEW JOBS, NEW OPPORTUNITIES FOR JUST, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU BUILD THERE NEEDS TO BE WORKING HANDS, WORKING MINDS AND A LOT OF ENERGY BEHIND IT.

I THINK WE WILL SEE THAT PERIOD OF TIME EVOLVING.

WE HAVEN'T FINISHED THE ROLLING DOWN THE HILL, YOU KNOW, SEGMENT OF THIS CRISIS, SO WE NEED TO GET TO THE BOTTOM BEFORE WE CAN BEGIN TO REALLY CLIMB UP.

I THINK THAT IT IS IN PROGRESS.

SURE.

LAST QUESTION.

YOU MENTIONED WHAT THIS NEW WORLD ORDER MIGHT LOOK LIKE.

I FOR ONE MISS BEING IN AN OFFICE.

I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE LIKE ME OUT THERE.

YOU MENTIONED THAT THERE COULD BE SORT OF A NEW SPACE FOR WHAT HAPPENS A DIGITAL OFFICE DESIGN POSITION.

WHAT COULD THAT LOOK LIKE IN THE FUTURE?

I THINK WE SEE TWO MANIFESTATIONS, THE FIRST ONE IS WE HAVE SEEN IN ANY CASE PEOPLE GOING INTO FLEXIBLE ARRANGEMENTS OF WORK, PEOPLE WORKING FROM -- PEOPLE ENJOYING THE LIBERTY THAT THIS ARRANGEMENT BRINGS.

SO WE'VE SEEN THAT SPLIT ANY WAIST AND WE'VE SEEN PEOPLE SELECTING NOT TO WORK FROM AN OFFICE BUT NOT COMPROMISE THE SOCIAL ASPECT, WHICH IS SO CRITICAL TO ALL OF US.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN RECENTLY, WHICH IS JUST AMAZING IS SOME OF THE COLLEGES HAVE HAD TO CLOSE -- ALL THE COLLEGES HAD TO CLOSE DOWN, RIGHT?

AT ONE POINT THERE WERE OVER 800 MILLION STUDENTS SITTING HOME WORLDWIDE, BUT SOME OF THESE COLLEGES HAVE HAD TO CLOSE, HAD STUDENTS IN THE COLLEGE GOING TO MINECRAFT, AN ONLINE PLATFORM, AND BUILDING THEIR COLLEGES IN THIS VIRTUAL SPACE AND YOU COULD LITERALLY WALK IN THE -- YOU KNOW, IN MANY OF THOSE HALLWAYS AND YOU COULD GO AND SIT JUT SIDE OF THE BUILDINGS IN THAT VIRTUAL SPACE.

I THINK THAT THE WORKPLACE OF THE FUTURE WILL DEFINITELY HAVE VIRTUAL REALITY TO IT THAT IS SEAMLESS, IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S REAL, IT'S A DIGITAL TWIN TO WHAT WE HAVE ON SITE AND WE WILL BE ABLE TO TRANSITION TO THE CLOUD AND BACK TO EARTH, SO TO SPEAK, TO THE CLOUD, TO THE VIRTUAL SPACE AND THEN BACK TO THE ON-SITE SPACE QUITE SEAMLESSLY.

THIS BY THE WAY IS JUST ANOTHER JOB, ONCE UPON A TIME SOMEBODY WAS A DESIGNER AND AN INTERIOR DESIGNER AND THEN THEY BECAME A WORKPLACE DESIGNER, NOW WE HAVE TO HAVE DIGITAL WORKPLACE DESIGNERS DESIGNING THOSE ENVIRONMENTS AND SO I THINK THAT FOR US THE USER OF THIS ENVIRONMENT WE WILL FEEL -- IT WILL COMPENSATE FOR A LOT OF THE LONELINESS SHALL WE SAY THAT COMES FROM WORKING REMOTELY BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT NECESSARILY FEEL ALONE.

YOU WILL FEEL AS IF IT'S A VIRTUAL REALITY FEELING.

YOU WILL FEEL AS IF YOU ARE IN THE OFFICE AND WHENEVER YOU REALLY WANT TO SEE A HUMAN BEING IN, YOU KNOW -- WITHIN THE DISTANCE THAT'S ALLOWED, I THINK WE WILL GO TO THE NEW WORK SPACES THAT WILL BECOME SOME OF REWORK LIKE ON STEROIDS.

WELL, IF THAT HAPPENS I WILL MEET UP WITH YOU IN MY VIDEO GAME OFFICE OF THE FUTURE.

I WILL BE DELIGHTED TO HAVE MY AVATAR AS WELL.

THAT'S GOOD.

I'M MADDIE ORTON, I'VE BEEN SPEAKING WITH ANAT LECHNER, PROFESSOR OF MANAGEMENT AND ORGANIZATIONS AT NYU STERN.

THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

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