CHASING THE DREAM: “I DON’T WANT TO DIE POOR”

> HI, I'M JENNA FLANAGAN METH MO 'METROFOCUS.'

DID YOU REMEMBER TO FILL OUT YOUR CENSUS FORM?

AND THEN THERE IS THAT ELECTION COMING UP.

BEFORE WE STARTED TALKING ALL CORONAVIRUS ALL THE TIME, THERE WERE OTHER INCIDENTS TAKING PRECEDENT IN OUR NATIONAL DISCOURSE, ISSUES LIKE INCOME INEQUALITY AND DEBT, PARTICULARLY STUDENT LOAN DEBT, AND IN A SECOND BOOK, I DON'T WANT TO DIE POOR, WRITER MICHAEL ARSINO USES STUDENT LOAN DEBT TO SHED LIGHT ON THE -- NOT ONLY THE BURDEN OF DEBT BUT ON THE ISSUES THAT CAN SURFACE UNDER ITS WEIGHT, AND AS PART OF OUR CHASING THE DREAM INITIATIVE EXAMINING POVERTY AND OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA, I'M GLAD TO WELCOME MICHAEL ARSINO TO THE PROGRAM.

WELCOME TO 'METROFOCUS.'

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME, ESPECIALLY DURING A NIGHTMARE.

OF COURSE, OF COURSE.

FIRST I WANT TO GIVE PEOPLE AN UNDERSTANDING BECAUSE YOU DO DIVE INTO IT A LITTLE BIT.

WHAT WERE THE ISSUES OR WHAT WAS IT THAT LED YOU TO TAKE ON OR TAKE OUT THE LOANS THAT CREATED THIS CLOUD OF DEBT THAT JUST FOLLOWED YOU EVERYWHERE?

I KIND OF STARTED FROM THE FIRST CHAPTER TO BASICALLY WRITE ABOUT AN EXPERIENCE WITH A VERY ATTRACTIVE RECRUITER AT A RIVAL COLLEGE THAT KIND OF JUST PUT IN THE IDEA THAT I ACTUALLY COULD LEAVE COLLEGE AND I COULD BASICALLY DREAM A LITTLE BIGGER THAN MY ALREADY BIG DREAMS AT THE TIME.

FOR ME HOWARD UNIVERSITY, WHILE IT WAS A GREAT SCHOOL, IT WAS ONE THAT WAS NOT WITHIN MY MEANS, SO WHILE I WON SCHOLARSHIPS DIRECTLY AFTER BEING INSPIRED BY THAT PERSON, JUST REALISTICALLY I DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY, SO WE WENT THROUGH PRIVATE LOANS.

THOSE WERE THE BEST AVAILABLE OPTIONS AT THE TIME, AND WE DIDN'T KNOW AS MUCH, OR AT LEAST I DIDN'T KNOW AS MUCH, AND THAT'S THE OPTION THAT WE TOOK.

OF COURSE, AND THAT HAPPENS -- WE HEAR SO MANY VERSIONS OF THAT STORY HAPPENING OVER AND OVER AGAIN SO I'M ALSO WONDERING NOW WHAT WAS IT WITNESS YOU TOOK OUT THOSE LOANS AND REALIZED THE FULL TOTALITY OF THE COST THAT THEY WOULD REQUIRE YOU TO PAY BACK, BUT ALSO HOW MUCH THEY WOULD FOLLOW YOU INTO DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF YOUR LIFE, HOW DID YOU BEGIN TO PROCESS THAT?

WELL, I WILL SAY WHILE I DEFINITELY HOLD MYSELF ACCOUNTABLE FOR MY CHOICES, I DIDN'T ENTER THE SITUATION WITH LIKE NAIVETY.

I KNEW IT WASN'T NECESSARILY THE BEST OPTION, BUT IT WAS THE ONE THAT WAS BEST AVAILABLE, AND I TOLD A LOT OF PEOPLE OF THE TRILLION DOLLARS THAT THE STUDENT LOAN, 100 BILLION OF THAT IS PRIVATE LOAN DEBT, AND THAT DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTS BLACK COLLEGE GRADUATES BECAUSE WE ESSENTIALLY ARE STARTING FROM BL BEHIND.

I KNEW IT WAS GOING TO BE DIFFICULT.

WHAT I DIDN'T KNOW, IN MY INSTANCE, TRADITIONAL MEDIA HAD IMPLODED SO THERE WERE NO JOBS AVAILABLE.

IT WAS ALSO COUPLED WITH THE FACT THAT GEORGE W. BUSH WAS PRESIDENT AND WE HAD THE GREAT RECESSION.

A LOT OF JOBS WERE NOT THERE.

I THINK WHAT HAPPENED IS A LOT OF GRADUATES ARE UNFORTUNATELY FINDING THE SAME THING I'M DISCOVERING THAT YOU ARE NOT AS IN COMPLETE CONTROL OF YOUR LIFE AS YOU WOULD LIKE TO THINK.

IN MY PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCE, I THINK WITH STUDENT LOANS, GOVERNMENT LOANS, PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT THEM, DEBT IS DEBT, IS BAD.

THE GOVERNMENT AT LEAST WORKS WITH YOU.

PRIVATE CORPORATIONS ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO WORK WITH YOU.

I'VE BEEN ON A 12 YEAR PLAN TO PAY OFF A VERY SIZABLE LOAN WITH VERY LITTLE OPTIONS TO DO ANYTHING.

I THINK THAT'S THE GREATER BURDEN.

ALSO THE FACT THAT PEOPLE FILE FOR BRUANKRUPTCY, I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DISCHARGE THAT DEBT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW ABOUT PRIVATE LOANS AND I THINK THAT'S THE BIGGER ISSUE SO DO I WISH I HAD NOT TAKEN OUT THE LOANS?

ABSOLUTELY.

BUT I KIND OF ALSO THOUGHT I DIDN'T HAVE REALLY MUCH OF A CHOICE.

I WAS GOING TO BE IN DEBT NO MATTER WHAT.

I MADE A DECISION THAT WE FELT WAS THE BEST AT THE TIME FOR ME.

IT'S JUST UNFORTUNATE THAT I WASN'T BORN WITH THE MONEY THAT MOST PEOPLE HAVE OR AT LEAST THE ACCESS AND PRIVILEGES.

AND THAT ACTUALLY IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT IN ONE OF YOUR ESSAYS, SPECIFICALLY YOU WRITE IT'S ADORABLE TO BELIEVE THAT WE LIVE IN A MERITOCRACY, BUT SO MUCH OF CERTAIN TYPES OF SUCCESS IS DICTATED BY EVERYTHING ELSE BESIDES PERCEIVED SPECIAL TALENTS AND ABILITIES.

IT'S ABOUT PRIVILEGE AND HOW THAT PRIVILEGE GIVES WAY TO GREATER ACCESS AND LARGER MEANS THAN ARE AFFORDED TO THOSE WHO LACK IT.

SO WHAT WAS IT THAT LED YOU TO THAT REALIZATION, IF YOU WILL?

I DON'T WANT TO PLUG BOTH BOOKS, BUT I HAD A VERY CHAOTIC CHIL CHILDHOOD, VERY VIOLENT, A LOT OF CERTAIN ISSUES AND SO I DON'T -- AGAIN, I DON'T HAVE A LOT OF BLINDERS.

I GUESS WHAT I THOUGHT WAS IT WOULDN'T BE AS DIFFICULT TO JUST KIND OF KEEP GETTING OVER THE HUMP.

I THINK SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS THAT I HAD SPECIFICALLY ARE RELATED TO MEDIA BUT THEY'RE ALSO RELATED TO ANYBODY WHO IS BLACK.

A LOT OF THINGS THAT IMPACTED ME ARE BEYOND MY CONTROL.

IT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT BECAUSE OF THE WAY I MAY SOUND, HOW I CARRY MYSELF, OH, BLACK QUEER LIMITED, HE CAN'T DO ANYTHING.

IT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE THESE IDEAS OF MY EARNING POTENTIAL BASED ON THINGS OUTSIDE OF MY CONTROL, BUT THAT DOES IMPACT MY BOTTOM LINE.

THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT I WAS PAID AND I DON'T WANT TO DIE POOR.

NOT SOLELY BECAUSE IT WAS THE FIRST TIME AUTHOR BUT BECAUSE OF THE ASSUMPTION BECAUSE OF WHO I AM, THE STORIES I TELL THAT THERE'S NO VALUE IN THAT.

THAT IMPACTED SO MANY DIFFERENT TYPES OF PEOPLE, WOMEN, OTHERS, SO THOSE ARE THINGS BEYOND OUR CONTROL.

I DO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO TALK ABOUT I SHOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN OUT THE THOSE LOANS.

I COULD HAVE DONE EVERYTHING PERFECTLY, NOT HAD ANY DEBT AND STILL COULD BE IN DEBT IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THAT I CAN'T CONTROL PEOPLE'S PREJUDICES.

IT'S ALSO ABOUT INEQUALITY AND THE MYTH OF SOCIAL MOBILITY IN THIS COUNTRY THAT IS NOT AS EASY AS PEOPLE MAKE IT SEEM.

I'M SPEAKING WITH WRITER MICHAEL ARSINO ABOUT HIS SECOND BOOK, A COLLECTION OF ESSAYS, 'I DON'T WANT TO DIE POOR.'

YOU TOUCH ON ISSUES THAT I FEEL AS THOUGH, ESPECIALLY WITH OUR CHASING THE DREAM INITIATIVE, THAT WE TRIED TO LOOK AT, BUT I'M WONDERING FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE FOR, LET'S SAY WORKING POOR, WORKING CLASS, EVEN MIDDLE CLASS BLACK AND BROWN STUDENTS BECAUSE THERE IS THAT STARTING AT A DISADVANTAGE, IS THERE AN ADDITIONAL PRICE THAT COMES WITH CHASING YOUR DREAMS IF THOSE DREAMS DON'T IMMEDIATELY COME WITH A BIG PAYCHECK?

YEAH, I MEAN, AND IT'S CHASING THE DREAMS, IT'S TRYING TO LIVE.

WE UNFORTUNATELY A LOT OF US JUST DON'T HAVE AN -- ONE THING I WILL SAY ABOUT THE BOOK IS THAT I TALK REALLY -- EVERYTHING THAT I DO, I REALLY DO TRY TO HAVE A WORKING CLASS PERSPECTIVE BECAUSE THAT'S WHO I AM, AND I THINK THAT'S OFTEN MISSING.

BLACK WORKING CLASS PERSPECTIVE BECAUSE LAST I HEARD ECONOMIC ANXIETY WAS A POPULAR CONVERSATION, YET YOU DON'T USUALLY HEAR FROM ECONOMIC ANXIETY FROM PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE US.

AND LIKE I TALK ABOUT STRUGGLE BUT I REALLY DO WANT THE DREAMERS TO LIKE UNDERSTAND THAT LIKE, YOU KNOW T C, IT CAN BE H.

IT CAN BE DIFFICULT.

YOU CAN KEEP GOING.

YOU CAN FIND JOY IN THESE HARD TIMES.

YOU CAN LAUGH AT YOURSELF.

A LOT OF THE BOOK IS THAT I TOOK OUT SO MUCH ON MYSELF BECAUSE OF THINGS THAT WERE BEYOND MY CONTROL, AND I TOOK THE SHAME OF DEBT AND NOT PERFORMING WHAT I THOUGHT I SHOULD BE.

IN REALITY I'M ASKING MYSELF, I FORGAVE MYSELF FOR THINGS THAT I SHOULD HAVE NEVER NEEDED FORGIVENESS FOR, AND THAT WHAT I REALLY WANT PEOPLE WHO HAVE A DREAM, WHATEVER IT IS, TO KIND OF LIKE NOT FEEL GUILTY, PARTICULARLY IN THIS CONTEXT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE JUST GRADUATED.

THEY'RE LOOKING AROUND, AND THEY HAVE NOTHING TO -- THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO, AND THAT'S SCARY.

AND OF COURSE THE SECOND CRISIS IS ONLY EXACERBATING THAT.

RIGHT, AND IT'S JUST -- I DO NOT KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN TOMORROW AND THE NEXT FEW DAYS.

I DO THINK WHEN YOU TAKE FROM MY LIFE AND PARTICULARLY I DON'T WANT TO DIE POOR, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE DOOMSDAY ASPECT, BUT I DO KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO GROW -- TO GRADUATE INTO A NIGHTMARE AND NOT JUST HAVE THE OPTIONS YOU THOUGHT WERE THERE.

IT'S PAINFUL AND IT'S HURTFUL.

YOU KIND OF GO A LITTLE STIR CRAZY.

I DO THINK YOU CAN FIGURE IT OUT.

YOU JUST HAVE TO BE KIND TO YOURSELF AND FOR ME IT'S LITTLE THINGS ABOUT WRITING IT DOWN STEP BY STEP, EVEN NOW.

I'M MUCH MORE FORTUNATE THAN I WAS EVEN A YEAR AGO BUT THAT CHANGED ON A WHIM.

SO MUCH OF OUR FATE RIGHT NOW IS IN THE HANDS OF SOMEONE ELSE.

I'M LEARNING TO CONTROL WHAT I CAN CONTROL AND THAT'S HOW I REACT TO BASICALLY INJUSTICE, INEQUALITY, UNFAIRNESS, SO YEAH, I'LL STOP NOW, BUT I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE WHO DO DREAM KIND OF TAKE THAT.

IT'S A REALLY DARK TIME AND I WANT PEOPLE TO FEEL AT LEAST BETTER ABOUT WHAT THEY CAN CONTROL.

WELL, OF COURSE, AND SPEAKING OF THE WAY THAT YOU TALK SO PERSONALLY ABOUT IT, I MEAN, YOUR BOOK DOES HAVE A VERY INTIMATE FEEL TO IT.

IT ALMOST FEELS AS THOUGH, WELL, YOU'RE TALKING TO THE READER.

YOU WERE TALKING TO ME IS WHAT I FELT LIKE.

AND SO IT MAKES DIGESTING A LOT OF YOUR ESSAYS SO MUCH, IT'S LIKE WATER ALMOST.

THANK YOU.

I WROTE ABOUT SOME REALLY PAINFUL THINGS, SOME STUFF I DIDN'T NECESSARILY THINK I WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT BECAUSE YOU CAN REALLY TIE IT TO YOUR DEBT, CONTROL ABOUT FOOD AND THINGS AND DATING.

BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE, I DON'T KNOW.

WE WERE KEEPING SECRETS ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE HOME, I ALSO THINK THERE'S A LOT OF US KEEP SECRETS ABOUT OUR MONEY AND HOW WE FEEL ABOUT IT AND THE PRESSURES OF PERFORMING, PARTICULARLY IN THIS, AND EVEN BEFORE THIS, WHICH IS REALLY HARD.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO BE A LOT MORE HONEST.

I DIDN'T GLEEFULLY WRITE THIS BOOK.

IT WAS A MISERABLE EXPERIENCE WRITING IT, PARTICULARLY AS I WAS FACING SOME OF THE STRUGGLES I THOUGHT I'D HAVE BEEN DONE WITH BY THEN.

BUT EVEN -- IT WAS MISERABLE TO WRITE, BUT I REALLY DO -- I'M A LITTLE HOKEY, I'M GETTING OLDER, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO TELL OUR STORIES, TO FACE OUR SHAME IN ORDER TO JUST KIND OF ENCOURAGE EACH OTHER BECAUSE I JUST DON'T THINK ANY OF US SHOULD BE CARRYING SO MUCH OF THIS INSIDE, AND I DO THINK A LOT OF MILLENNIALS CARRY THIS INSIDE, AND I DON'T WANT PEOPLE BEHIND US TO KIND OF CARRY THIS A SHAME.

LIKE WE REALLY NEED TO BREAK THESE CYCLES, WE'RE ALL KIND OF TRAPPED, AND WE MIGHT BE TRAPPED IN OUR HOMES EVEN LONGER BECAUSE OF AN UNJUST SOCIETY.

WE NEED TO KIND OF EXAMINE THOSE THINGS.

WELL, YOU SPEAK SO ELOQUENTLY ABOUT ADDRESSING, ACKNOWLEDGING AND RELEASING SHAME, AND AGAIN, WHAT WOULD I GUESS BE YOUR ADVICE TO MILLENNIALS, GEN Z, THE KIDS WHO JUST GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL AND ARE NOW TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IF THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE A SOCIALLY DISTANCED FIRST SEMESTER OF COLLEGE COMING UP.

WHAT WOULD YOUR ADVICE BE TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE CARRYING A SHAME THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY THEIR BURDEN TO BEAR?

I'M REALLY SORRY ABOUT WHAT'S H HAPPENING.

THOSE ARE MEMORIES YOU CAN'T RECREATE, BUT I CAN SAY, YOU KNOW, DON'T BE SO HARD ON YOURSELF.

IT SOUNDS SO MUCH EASIER.

BELIEVE ME, I KNOW, BUT I DO THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO -- YOU MIGHT HAVE TO MATURE A LITTLE BIT FASTER.

I DON'T MEAN TO SAY THAT IN INSULTINGLY.

YOU COULD LITERALLY BECOME 50 AND STILL BE STUCK IN A PLACE.

A LOT OF MY BOOK IS LIKE DON'T BE A FOOL LIKE ME.

DON'T BE SO HARD ON YOURSELF.

REALLY ASSESS THAT A LOT OF THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT AND TAKE CONTROL OF WHAT YOU CAN.

I WILL SAY TO CERTAIN COLLEGE STUDENTS WHO MIGHT BE TAKING ON A REALLY SIZABLE DEBT FOR THIS IDEA OF WHAT THEY THOUGHT COULD BE AND MIGHT NOT ACTUALLY BE GETTING THE EXPERIENCE THEY WERE TO ME ALREADY BEING OVERCHARMGE FOR.

REALLY TAKE THIS SUMMER TO ASSESS HOW MUCH THE DEBT IS WORTH.

I'M NOT GOING TO PRETEND THAT YOU MIGHT NOT IS TO TAKE OUT ANY KIND OF DEBT, BUT YOU PROBABLY WILL.

YOU SHOULD VALUE HOW MUCH OF IT YOU'RE WILLING TO TAKE.

DON'T BE THE FOOL LIKE ME.

I DON'T REGRET WHAT I DID.

BUT I WISH I WOULD HAVE DONE IT DIFFERENTLY SLIGHTLY IF I COULD HAVE.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE SECOND BOOK, 'I DON'T WANT TO DIE POOR,' AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

ABSOLUTELY.