NEW BAIL REFORM LAW

GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO 'METROFOCUS.'

I'M JACK FORD.

NEW YORK'S BAIL REFORM LAW.

THE QUESTION IS, IS IT FAIR OR IS IT DANGEROUS?

CONTROVERSIAL NEW REFORMS WENT INTO EFFECT AT THE BEGINNING OF 2020, ELIMINATING CASH BAIL FOR ALMOST ALL MISDEMEANORS AND NONVIOLENT CRIMES.

SUPPORTERS SAY THAT THESE REFORMS CREATE A FAIRER CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, ONE THAT DOES NOT DISYIM NATE AGAINST THE POOR AND KEEPS PEOPLE OUT OF A A LOCKUP BEFORE THEY'VE BEEN CONVICTED OF A CRIME.

STAY REPUBLICAN PARTY LEADER AND MEMBERS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT, HOWEVER, HAVE RALLIED AGAINST THE CHANGES.

THEY POINT TO CASES LIKE THAT OF A SUSPECTED BANK ROBBER WHO WAS RELEASED ON BAIL ONLY TO GO OUT AND ALLEGEDLY ROB ANOTHER BANK AND THEN SUPPOSEDLY YET ANOTHER.

AMID THE BACKLASH, GOVERNOR ANDREW CUOMO SAYS THE STATE IS LOOKING AT THE ISSUES AND AT POSSIBLE CHANGES.

IT'S A COMPLICATED SYSTEM.

YOU MAKE ONE CHANGE IN ONE PART OF THE SYSTEM THAT HAS RAMIFICATIONS IN OTHER PARTS OF THE SYSTEM.

WE'RE SPEAKING TO ALL SORTS OF ENGAGED AND INFORMED SOURCES AND OVER THE NEXT FEW WEEKS, WE'LL BE HAVING THE CONVERSATION WITH THE LEGISLATURE AS TO WHAT ADJUSTMENTS DO WE WANT TO MAKE.

OUR FIRST GUEST TONIGHT WAS HEAVILY INVOLVED IN THE LOBBYING EFFORT TO GET THIS BAIL REFORM PASSED, INSHAW RAKMAN IS AN ATTORNEY AND DIRECTOR OF STRATEGY AND NEW INITIATIVES AT THE BUREAU INSTITUTE OF JUSTICE, THE NONPROFIT WORKS WITH LEADERS IN GOVERNMENT AND SOCIETY TO IMPROVE THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

INSHAW, WE ARE DELIGHTED TO HAVE YOU WITH US TONIGHT.

LET ME ASK YOU TO START OFF BY GIVING US A SORT OF BIG PICTURE OF WHAT WENT ON HERE, FOR THOSE WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE FOLLOWED AND BE FAMILIAR WITH ALL THE DETAILS.

WHAT WERE THE CONCERNS ABOUT NEW YORK'S BAIL SYSTEM THAT DROVE THIS CONVERSATION AND WHAT ARE THE SIGNIFICANT CHANGES THAT WENT INTO PLACE?

THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME, JACK.

GLAD TO BE HERE AND GLAD TO BE TALKING ABOUT THIS IMPORTANT ISSUE THAT'S REALLY TOP OF MIND FOR MANY NEW YORKERS.

SO NEW YORK'S BAIL SYSTEM HAS RESULTED FOR DECADES IN INEQUITY.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE SITTING IN JAIL WHO SIMPLY CAN'T AFFORD THE PRICE OF THEIR FREEDOM, AND SO WHAT THAT ACTUALLY TRANSLATED INTO IS 24,000 NEW YORKERS IN JAIL ON ANY GIVEN DAY ACROSS THE STATE, 70% OF WHOM HAVE NOT BEEN CONVICTED OF A CRIME, PRESUMED INNOCENT AND THE VAST MAJORITY ARE THERE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD THE DOLLAR AMOUNT OF THEIR BAIL.

AND SO THIS BAIL REFORM THAT CAME INTO PLAY IN NEW YORK IT'S NOT UNIQUE TO NEW YORK.

OTHER JURISDICTIONS HAVE ENACTED BAIL REFORM.

OUR NEIGHBORS IN NEW JERSEY ENACTED BAIL REFORM TO MUCH SUCCESS THREE YEARS AGO SO IT'S REALLY LEARNING FROM WHAT OTHER JURISDICTIONS HAVE DONE, HOW DO YOU MAKE SURE PEOPLE AREN'T SITTING IN JAIL SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE SIZE OF THEIR WALLET AND THAT WE'RE ACTUALLY ENHANCING PUBLIC SAFETY BY MAKING SURE THAT PEOPLE CHARGED WITH MISDEMEANORS, NONVIOLENT FELONIES, LOW-LEVEL CRIMES ARE IN FACT GETTING TO STAY HOME WITH THEIR FAMILIES, STAY IN THEIR JOBS AND THEIR COMMUNITIES AND NOT BE SITTING INSIDE A JAIL CELL.

I WAS' ALWAYS BEEN SURPRISED THAT MANY PEOPLE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE PURPOSE OF BAIL AND SOME SENSE THEY THOUGHT ISN'T THIS A HEAD START ON PUNISHMENT?

BUT THAT'S NOT THE ANSWER.

WHAT IS IT THAT BAIL INITIALLY WAS DESIGNED TO SECURE AND TO PROVIDE?

HISTORICALLY THE PURPOSE OF BAIL IS INCENTIVE TO GET PEOPLE TO COURT.

IT USED TO BE AN IOU, A PROMISE.

THE JUDGE WOULD SAY IF YOU DON'T SHOW UP TO COURT YOU'RE ON THE HOOK FOR THIS AMOUNT OF MONEY.

OVER TIME AND THIS HAS BEEN IN THE LAST CENTURY IN THIS COUNTRY, JUDGES STARTED SETTING BAIL, YOU HAVE TO PAY THAT MONEY UP FRONT.

WHO DOES THAT IMPACT?

THAT IMPACTS PEOPLE WHO ARE POOR, WHO DON'T HAVE THAT MONEY.

SO THAT'S LED TO THE CRISIS THAT WE HAVE NOW HERE IN NEW YORK AND ACROSS THIS COUNTRY, WHERE NATIONWIDE THERE'S ALMOST 500,000 PEOPLE IN JAIL TODAY SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PAY BAIL AND HERE IN NEW YORK, 24,000 PEOPLE IN JAIL, 70% OF WHOM ARE PRESUMED INNOCENT, HAVEN'T BEEN CONVICTED OF A CRIME BUT THERE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD BAIL.

THAT DEFEATS THE INITIAL PURPOSE OF BAIL WHICH WAS INCENTIVE TO SHOW UP TO COURT, NOT NECESSARILY PUNISHMENT BEFORE CONVICTION, WHICH IS HOW BAIL HAS FUNCTIONED IN RECENT DECADES.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY, ANSWER A CONCERNED CITIZEN WHO SAYS TO YOU LOOK, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING AND I APPLAUD THE NOTION OF TAKING PEOPLE WHO ARE CHARGED WITH NONVIOLENT OFFENSES, OFTENTIMES THE FIRST TIME THEY'RE INVOLVED IN THE JUSTICE SYSTEM AND LET THEM OUT.

'COSTING THE CITY AND STATE ENORMOUS SUMS OF MONEY, COSTING THEIR FAMILY ENORMOUS SUMS OF MONEY.

THEN THEY SAY TO YOU, HOWEVER, HOW DO WE PROTECT OURSELVES, WE BEING THE PUBLIC FROM PEOPLE WHO WE LOOK AT AND WE SAY ALL RIGHT, WE KNOW THAT THEY HAVE A HISTORY OF CRIMINAL EVENTS.

LOOKING AT WHAT THEY DID HERE THERE'S A PRETTY GOOD CHANCE WE'RE GOING TO SEE THEM AGAIN AND THAT DOES NOT PROTECT US.

SO HOW CAN WE ON THE ONE HAND SAY LET'S MAKE SURE PEOPLE WHO DON'T BELONG THERE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN CONVICTED OF ANYTHING GET OUT AND YET STILL PROTECT THE PUBLIC?

WHAT'S THE ANSWER TO THAT DILEMMA?

PUBLIC SAFETY IS OF PARAMOUNT CONCERN FOR ALL OF US, INCLUDING THOSE OF US WHO WERE DEEPLY INVOLVED IN MAKING SURE THESE NEW LAWS PASSED, AND HERE IS WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THE USE OF JAIL AND PUBLIC SAFETY IS THAT IF SOMEBODY IS ACCUSED OF A CRIME, EVEN A SERIOUS CRIME, AND YOU PUT THEM IN JAIL, YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE BROKEN THEIR TIES TO THEIR COMMUNITIES, THEIR LOVED ONES, ANY ACCESS TO SERVICES SUCH AS MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT OR DRUG TREATMENT, OR OPPORTUNITIES TO BECOME EMPLOYED, SO ACTUALLY THAT STINT IN JAIL WHICH FOR MOST PEOPLE IS A MATTER OF DAYS, WEEKS OR PERHAPS EVEN MONTHS, BUT WHEN THAT PERSON IS RELEASED, THEY'RE ACTUALLY MORE LIKELY TO CONTINUE TO BE INVOLVED IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

ONE OF THE BEST PARTS OF THE NEW BAIL LAW THAT WAS PASSED IS THAT JUDGES NOW EXPLICITLY ARE REQUIRED AND CAN CONSIDER WHAT PRETRIAL CONDITIONS OF RELEASE, WHAT SUPPORTIVE SERVICES, WHAT KINDS OF MONITORING AND SUPERVISION CAN WE PROVIDE INDIVIDUALS SO THAT WE ACTUALLY DO BREAK THAT CYCLE, SO THAT THOSE CONCERNS ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY ARE MET.

IT'S ACTUALLY A FALSEHOOD TO ASSUME THAT JAIL AND INCARCERATION WILL GIVE US MORE PUBLIC SAFETY.

SURE, IT WILL GIVE A TEMPORARY PERIOD OF KEEPING SOMEBODY OFF THE STREETS, IF YOU WILL, BUT IT ACTUALLY KICKS THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD, TO ANSWER YOUR REAL QUESTION ABOUT HOW DO WE MAKE SURE PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO TURN THEIR LIVES AROUND, AND STAY OUT OF TROUBLE, AND STAY OUT OF CRIME AND HOW WE DO THAT BEST IS TWO WAYS.

ONE IS TO GIVE PEOPLE ACCESS TO THE RESOURCES AND SERVICES THAT GIVES THEM THAT OPPORTUNITY, AND THE SECOND, LET'S BE VERY CLEAR HERE IS SOMEONE WHO COMES INTO OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS NOT ACTUALLY CONDUCT THAT IS CONCERNING OR REPREHENSIBLE BUT IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT POLICING AND ENFORCEMENT AND WHAT WE CHOOSE TO CRIMINALIZE.

BOTH OF THOSE ISSUES ARE AT PLAY HERE.

WHAT SORT OF POWER DO JUDGES NOW HAVE?

BY WAY OF COMPARISON, WE KNOW THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY INSTITUTED BAIL REFORM A LITTLE BIT, BEFORE NEW YORK DID.

BUT THEIR JUDGES DO HAVE STILL SOME ABILITY TO SAY ALL RIGHT, ORDINARILY YOU MIGHT LOOK LIKE YOU FIT IN A CATEGORY THAT SAYS NO BAIL, GO HOME, COME BACK WHEN YOUR CASE IS UP BUT THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO SAY NOT YOU, NOT UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES.

I'VE GOT AN EXEMPTION HERE, AN EXCEPTION AND I'M GOING TO UTILIZE IT AND HAVE BAIL OR YOU'RE NOT GETTING OUT AT ALL.

DO NEW YORK JUDGES HAVE SOME SIMILAR POWERS, AND SHOULD THEY?

SO NEW YORK JUDGES UNDER THE NEW BAIL LAW HAVE THE DISCRETION TO HAVE THE POWER TO CONTINUE TO SET BAIL, IT'S BUSINESS AS USUAL.

ON THE MORE SERIOUS CASES, VIOLENT OFFENSES, CASES INVOLVING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE THE CASES THAT CAUSE CONCERNS ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY, AND NEW JERSEY, JUDGES ARE DETAINING THOSE FOLKS, TOO, UNDER THEIR NEW BAIL REFORM LAW.

WITH DISCRETION THE MOST PROBLEMATIC AND IT'S REALLY RESULTED IN RACIAL DISPARITIES OF WHO IS IN JAIL AND WHO IS DETAINED PRETRIAL IS WHEN IT COMES TO LOWER LEVEL OFFENSES, MISDEMEANORS AND NONVIOLENT FELONIES.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN NEW JERSEY, WHICH UNDOUBTEDLY HAS HAD SUCCESS WITH BAIL REFORM, THEY HAVE 30% FEWER PEOPLE IN JAIL TODAY THAN THEY DID BEFORE BAIL REFORM TOOK PLACE THERE AND PUBLIC SAFETY HAS INCREASED, VIOLENT CRIME IS DOWN, ALL MEASURES OF CRIME ARE DOWN IN NEW JERSEY, BUT THE ONE PROBLEM, AND THIS IS REALLY A FUNCTION OF JUDICIAL DISCRETION, THE ONE PROBLEM WITH THE JAIL REFORM IS RACIAL DISPARITIES AND WHO IS STILL DETAINED PRETRIAL HAS NOT CHANGED SINCE BEFORE THE BAIL REFORM LAW, AND SO NEW YORK LEGISLATORS AND OFFICIALS LOOKED AT THAT PROBLEM OF HOW NEW JERSEY'S BAIL REFORM LAW HAS PLAYED OUT AND DECIDED TO SAY JUDGES WE'RE GOING TO CURTAIL THEIR DISCRETION, TO SET BAIL OR HOLD PEOPLE IN JAIL ON MISDEMEANOR AND NONVIOLENT FELONIES, THAT'S A KEY PART OF NEW YORK'S NEW BAIL REFORM LAW.

HOWEVER, JUDGES HAVE LOTS OF DISCRETION, IN FACT THEY HAVE MORE EX-POLICITY DISCRETION NOW UNDER THIS NEW LAW THAN UNDER THE OLD REGIME TO SET CONDITIONS OF RELEASE SUCH AS SUPPORTIVE SERVICES, MONITORING, SUPERVISION, THAT MAKES SURE THAT PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY COMING BACK TO COURT, AND STAY ARREST FREE DURING THE PENDCY.

PENDANCY.

COMMENTS BY NICOLE MALEATAKIS, CONGRESSWOMAN, TALKING ABOUT HER CONCERN OVER THIS.

LISTEN TO THIS, IF YOU WOULD.

THE PEOPLE OF NEW YORK KNOW IT'S WRONG.

THE DEMOCRATS KNOW IT'S WRONG.

THE GOVERNOR'S SAYING THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE AND SECOND WEEK OF SESSION, WE'RE HERE NOW AND NOBODY'S DONE ANYTHING TO ADDRESS IT AND IT'S BEEN US, THE REPUBLICANS, THAT ARE PUTTING FORWARD LEGISLATION FOR FIXING, AND I GOT TO TELL YOU, IF IT DOESN'T GET FIXED, THERE'S GOING TO BE BLOOD ON GOVERNOR CUOMO'S HANDS.

NOW I DON'T KNOW IF SHE MEANS LITERALLY OR FIGURATIVELY BUT THAT'S A FAIRLY DIRE PREDICTION.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

HER PREDICTION IS COMPLETELY FALSE AND INCORRECT IS ESSENTIALLY FEAR MONGERING.

IF HISTORY IS ANY TELL AND IT IS A TELL, I BROUGHT UP NEW JERSEY THAT ENACTED BAIL REFORM THREE YEARS AGO AND BACK THEN, IN 2017, THERE WERE THE SAME SORT OF CONCERNS ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY AND WOULD THERE BE BLOOD ON PEOPLE'S HANDS AND BLOOD ON THE STREETS AS A RESULT OF LETTING MORE PEOPLE OUT OF JAIL PRETRIAL, AND YOU CAN SEE THAT IN THE NEWSPAPERS OF NEW JERSEY, THAT CONTINUES THROUGHOUT THE FIRST SEVERAL MONTHS THE BAIL REFORM IS THERE, EXACTLY LIKE THE PRESS THAT'S GOING ON HERE IN NEW YORK.

WHAT WE KNOW THREE YEARS IN, IN NEW JERSEY, IS THAT THERE ISN'T BLOOD ON ANYBODY'S HANDS.

THERE ISN'T BLOOD ON THE STREETS.

ALL MEASURES, CRIME IS DOWN FROM VIOLENT CRIME TO LOW-LEVEL CRIME.

ARRESTS ARE DOWN.

THERE ARE FEWER PEOPLE IN JAIL.

THAT'S ACTUALLY A SUCCESS STORY.

THAT'S A STORY OF MORE PUBLIC SAFETY, AND THAT'S THE STORY THAT WILL HAPPEN HERE IN NEW YORK, IF WE ACTUALLY GIVE THESE REFORMS TIME TO PLAY OUT.

DO YOU SEE ANYTHING THAT YOU MIGHT SUGGEST THAT SAYS ALL RIGHT, LET'S SEE IF WE CAN ADJUST THIS IN SOME FASHION TO SATISFY ALL THOSE LEGITIMATE CONCERNS?

THOSE CONCERNS ARE LEGITIMATE, AND CONSIDERING AMENDMENTS OR TWEAKS TO THE BAIL LAW, IT IS LEGITIMATE BUT ONLY AFTER WE'VE GIVEN IT ENOUGH TIME TO HAVE ENOUGH DATA, ENOUGH RESEARCH, ENOUGH IN THE WAY OF PROOF POINTS TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THIS IS WORKING, AND TWO WEEKS IN IS NOT MERELY ENOUGH PROOF POINT, AND THE ONLY PROOF POINTS THAT THOSE WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY WITH THESE NEW BAILOUTS IS A HANDFUL OF ISOLATED CASES, AND THEY ARE TERRIBLE, EACH OF THOSE INCIDENTS ARE AWFUL AND SHOULD NOT HAPPEN TO ANYBODY, BUT THAT IS IGNORING THE HUNDREDS OF NEW YORKERS WHO HAVE BEEN RELEASED, WHO HAVE GONE HOME, WHO ARE SAFE AT HOME AND WHO ARE COMING BACK TO COURT AS A RESULT.

IF ANY TWEAKS OR AMENDMENTS ARE TO BE MADE IT SHOULD ONLY BE MADE MONTHS DOWN THE ROAD, AFTER WE'VE HAD TIME TO STUDY AND TO SEE THE IMPACT OF THIS NEW LAW.

WELL IT'S CLEARLY A COMPELLING AND COMPLEX ISSUE.

INSHAW, I THANK YOU FOR SPENDING SOME TIME WITH US AND SHARING YOUR THOUGHTS.

MY HOPE IS YOU CAN GET BACK TO US SOON AND CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOU TAKE CARE.