TONIGHT ON METROFOCUS

President Trump’s former campaign chairman has been sentenced to almost four years behind bars for financial fraud, a much shorter sentence than the 19 to 24 years outlined in sentencing guidelines. Former Trump campaign adviser Sam Nunberg divulges what he was asked to submit to the House Judiciary Committee, analyzes Michael Cohen’s congressional testimony, and addresses the looming specter of a possible Presidential impeachment. Outspoken author and activist Irshad Manji takes on labels, gender roles and our divided nation. The legendary actor concludes our conversation on communication.

Aired on March 8, 2019. 

TRANSCRIPT

> TONIGHT ON 'METROFOCUS' -- AFTER WHAT SOME CONSIDER TOO LIGHT A SENTENCE, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FORMER CAMPAIGN MANAGER PAUL MANAFORT NOW FACES ALMOST FOUR YEARS BEHIND BARS FOR FINANCIAL FRAUD.

FAR SHORT OF THE 19 TO 24 YEARS THAT THE SENTENCING GUIDELINES CALLED FOR.

HE AWAITS A SECOND SENTENCING FOR A SEPARATE CONVICTION.

IN A MOMENT, SAM NUNBERG, A FORMINGER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER DISCUSSES THE BACK-STORY OF THE DOCUMENTS HE AND DOZENS OF OTHER TRUMP ASSOCIATES WERE ASKED TO SUBMIT BY THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, AS WELL AS MICHAEL COHEN'S RECENT CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY AND THE LOOMING SPECTOR OF A PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT.

> ON INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY, OUTSPOKEN AUTHOR, ACTIVIST AND FOUNDER OF THE MORAL COURAGE PROJECT, IRSHAD MONJI IS HERE WITH HER PERSPECTIVE ON LABELS, GENDER ROLES AND OUR DIVIDED NATION AND ALAN ALDA IS BACK, CONCLUDING OUR CONVERSATION ON THE WAYS WE COMMUNICATE AND WHY WE CAN ALL USE A REFRESHER COURSE ON THE TOPICS.

THOSE STORIES AND MORE AS 'METROFOCUS' STARTS RIGHT NOW.

> THIS IS 'METROFOCUS,' WITH RAFAEL P.ROMAN, JACK FORD AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

'METROFOCUS' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY JAMES AND MERRILL TISH, SUE AND HE HAD GRD WHACKENHEIM III.

BERNARD AND IRENE SCHWARTZ.

ROSALYN P. WALTER, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CORPORATE FUNDING FOR 'METROFOCUS' WAS PROVIDED BY MUTUAL OF AMERICA.

YOUR RETIREMENT COMPANY.

AND BY PSE & G SERVING CUSTOMERS, STRENGTHENING THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY AND INVESTING IN THE FUTURE.

> WELCOME TO 'METROFOCUS,' I'M RAFAEL ROMAN.

THE PRESIDENT UNDER INVESTIGATION.

A SWEEPING NEW PROBE LAUNCHED THIS WEEK BY HOUSE DEMOCRATS IS RATCHETING UP PRESSURE ON PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THOSE CLOSE TO HIM, EVEN AS TESTIMONY BY MICHAEL COHEN RAISES NEW QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PRESIDENT'S LEGAL EXPOSURE.

ON MONDAY THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE LED BY NEW YORK DID THEIC CONGRESSMAN JERRY NADLER SENT LETTERS TO 81 CURRENT AND FORMER TRUMP ASSOCIATES AND AGENCIES SEEKING DOULTS AND INFORMATION AS IT BEGINS A NEW INVESTIGATION INTO POSSIBLE OBSTRUCTION, CORRUPTION AND ABUSE OF POWER BY PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS ADMINISTRATION.

ACCORDING TO THE A.P. AND 'NEW YORK TIMES,' THE NEW PROBE COULD BE SETTING THE STAGE FOR A POSSIBLE IMPEACHMENT EFFORTS, SOMETHING THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN WARY OF APPROACHING SO FAR.

IT COMES AS FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN PAUL MANAFORT WAS SENTENCED TO FOUR YEARS IN PRISON FOR TAX AND BANK FRAUD RELATED TO HIS WORK ADVISING UKRAINIAN POLITICIANS, CRIMES HE COMMITTED BEFORE HE JOINED THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN.

THE SENTENCE IS TOWER LIGHT THAERN THE 19 TO 24-YEAR PRISON TERM RECOMMENDED.

LEADING MANY EXPERTS TO SAY THAT THE JUDGE, A REAGAN APPOINTEE, WAS TOO LENIENT.

JOINING US TO TALK ABOUT THE VARIOUS INVESTIGATIONS AND THE POSSIBLE JEOPARDY FOR THE PRESIDENT IS SAM NUNBERG, FORMER CAMPAIGN ADVISER TO DONALD TRUMP AND ONE OF THE INDIVIDUALS WHO RECEIVED A LETTER FROM THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE THIS WEEK.

WELL FIRST OF ALL THE COMMITTEE IS ASKING ME TO PROVIDE INFORMATION REGARDING ANY CONTACTS I COULD HAVE HAD OR WOULD HAVE HAD WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION ABOUT SANCTIONS WITH WIKILEAKS AND THE TRUMP TOWER MOSCOW MEETING, I THINK IT'S LIKE EIGHT PARTS.

I DON'T HAVE A LOT TO GIVE THEM AND IN THE END WAYS GOING TO COMPLY NO MATTER WHAT.

BECAUSE ONE, ELECTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES AND THE MINUTE THE DEMOCRATS WON THE HOUSE WE KNEW THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE THESE INVESTIGATIONS, JERRY NADLER SAID IT WHEN HE WAS THE RANKING MEMBER OF THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE.

NUMBER TWO ONE OF THE THINGS I HEAR FROM A LOT OF THE TRUMP ALLIES ARE SAYING THEY DON'T WANT TO COMPLY WITH THIS OR PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T EVEN RECEIVE THE LETTERS, ARE SAYING YOU SHOULDN'T COMPLY.

THEY'RE NOT THE ONES WHO RECEIVED THESE.

AND I DON'T WANT TO BE UNDER SUSPICION, BECAUSE I DID NOT COLLUDE WITH THE RUSSIANS, I DID NOT GET ANYTHING FROM WIKILEAKS AND I HAVE NO REASON NOT TO COMPLY.

THEY'RE GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT ROGER STONE.

RIGHT.

YOU SAID THAT ROGER STONE TOLD YOU THAT HE HAD DINNER WITH JULIAN ASSANGE, BUT YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT THAT EVER HAPPENED.

I BELIEVED IT AT THE TIME.

WHAT HE HAD TOLD ME.

BUT YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT ANY MORE?

SUBSEQUENTLY, NO.

BECAUSE HE TOLD ME THAT JULIAN ASSANGE WAS GOING TO RELEASE INFORMATION ON THE CLINTON FOUNDATION.

THEY NEVER REALLY RELEASED ANY INFORMATION ON THE CLINTON FOUNDATION.

SO EVERYTHING HE TOLD ME DID NOT TURN OUT TO BE ACCURATE.

NOW DON'T GET ME WRONG.

ROGER WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE HAD DINNER WITH JULIAN ASSANGE.

HE WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE MET HIM IN THE ECUADORIAN EMBASSY, BUT HE DIDN'T.

SOME PEOPLE SAY HE MAY BE THE FIRST PERSON EVER TO BE CONVICTED OF BRAGGING.

DO YOU THINK THAT MAY BE THE CASE?

ACTUALLY WAS IN CHARGE IN THE INDICTMENT HE WAS CHARGED WITH OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, ALLEGEDLY LYING TO CONGRESS.

I THINK THAT IT GOES TO WHETHER OR NOT ANY OF THESE, ANY AMERICANS ARE GOING TO BE PART OF THIS CONSPIRACY TO DEFRAUD AMERICA WHICH WAS IN THE FIRST INDICTMENT THAT MUELLER GOT FROM THE GRAND JURY.

I DON'T HAPPEN TO KNOW, BUT-DAY THINK THAT THE MUELLER REPORT WILL BE DAMNING FROM THE POINT OF VIEW THAT IT'S GOING TO SAY THAT THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN AND PERHAPS DONALD TRUMP WERE WILLING OR THOUGHT THEY WERE GETTING THESE WIKILEAKS --

IS THAT WHY YOU SAID MOST PEOPLE THINK THAT THE REPORT IS NOT GOING TO HAVE, IS NOT GOING TO PRESENT A FINDING OF A LINK OF COLLUSION BETWEEN THE ADMINISTRATION AND RUSSIA.

UH-HUH.

BUT YOU SAID YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A ROAD MAP FOR ITCH PEACHMENT?

IT IS GOING TO BE A ROAD MAP FOR IMPEACHMENT.

I THINK THEY WILL IMPEACH HIM.

I THINK WHAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE DOING ARE TRYING TO TAKE THEIR TIME.

TRYING TO PRESENT THEIR EVIDENCE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

I THINK THEY HAVE JUDGED AND CONGRESSMAN NADLER EVEN SAID HE BELIEVES THE PRESIDENT HAS ALREADY OBSTRUCTED JUSTICE.

THE ISSUE I THINK UNDERLINES FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE ONE, DO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT TO RELITIGATE THE 2016 ELECTION?

TWO, IF THE UNDERLYING CRIME THAT THEY DON'T HAVE ANY DIRECT EVIDENCE OF THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN OR DONALD TRUMP DEALING DIRECTLY WITH THE GRU OR THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT, THEN, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO IMPEACH HIM ON HERE IF THERE'S NO UNDERLYING CRIME.

AS OPPOSED TO NIXON AND CLINTON.

AND YOUR USUAL UNDERSTATED WAY, DONALD TRUMP TWEETED THAT THE HOUSE PROBE WAS THE GREATEST OVERREACH IN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY AND ADDED THE DEMS ARE OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE AND WON'T GET ANYTHING DONE, A BIG FAT FISHING EXPEDITION IN SEARCH OF A CRIME AND HE CALLED THE PROBE PRESIDENTIAL HARASSMENT.

DO YOU SEE THIS PROBE, PARTICULARLY FROM THE -- AS A WITCH HUNT.

DAVID AXELROD, THE DEMOCRATS SAID IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS.

DAVID AXELROD SAID THAT IN.

YES.

HE SAID BE CAREFUL, DEMOCRATS IT COULD LOOK LIKE A WITCH HUNT.

I THINK THAT THE PROBLEM THAT THE REPUBLICANS HAD IN 1998 WITH BILL CLINTON.

THESE ARE LEGAL ISSUES.

BUT WHAT I DO THINK IS THE PROBLEM FOR THE DEMOCRATS IS THAT IT LOOKS AS IF THE, IT LOOKS AS IF IT IS COOKED FROM THE POINT OF VIEW THEY ALREADY BELIEVE DONALD TRUMP COMMITTED CRIMES.

IF THEY DON'T HAVE AN UNDERLYING CRIME OF DONALD TRUMP DEALING WITH THE RUSSIANS DIRECTLY, OR THE GRU FOR WIKILEAKS, NOT EVEN WHETHER OR NOT -- IF HE DIDN'T DO IT THEN YOU KNOW WHERE'S THE BEEF?

THIS NOT, I DID NOT FEEL THAT THE LETTER I GOT WAS UNFAIR.

I THINK THERE'S EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE ISSUES WITH THE OTHER LETTERS.

BUT I DIDN'T GET ONE OF THOSE BECAUSE I DIDN'T REALLY DEAL WITH THE PRESIDENT, I TALKED TO HIM A COUPLE OF TIMES WHILE HE WAS PRESIDENT, BUT I HAVEN'T TALKED TO HIM IN A LONG TIME.

LET'S TALK ABOUT MICHAEL COHEN'S TESTIMONY.

A TALE OF TWO TESTIMONIES.

YOU LISTEN TO THE DEMOCRATS AND THEY SAY SMOKING GUNS ALL OVER THE PLACE, THIS HAS DAMNED THE PRESIDENT.

YOU TALK TO THE REPUBLICANS AND THEY SAY FINAL PROOF THAT THE RUSSIAN COLLUSION WAS NOTHING BUT A BIG HOME.

WHERE DO YOU SEE IT IN.

I DON'T KNOW THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE FINAL PROOF UNTIL WE ACTUALLY SEE THE MUELLER REPORT.

WHAT I DO SEE, THOUGH IS ONE, LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED WITH MICHAEL COHEN.

I LIKE MICHAEL, I SYMPATHIZE WITH MICHAEL.

I DON'T THINK HE WAS TREATED VERY WELL BY DONALD TRUMP.

WHAT WE DID FIND OUT, RAFAEL IS I CAN TELL YOU HE WANTED A WHITE HOUSE JOB.

HE SAID HE DIDN'T.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S MATERIAL TO HIS TESTIMONY.

NOW WE FIND OUT THAT HIS LAWYERS HAD APPROACH THEED TRUMP LAWYERS ABOUT A PARDON.

HOWEVER, WE ALSO FIND OUT THAT DONALD TRUMP, THIS IS WHERE I THINK HE COULD HAVE ULTIMATELY A PROBLEM, WAS YOU KNOW, NOT TELLING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THE TRUTH WHEN IT CAME TO THE STORMY DANIELS PAYMENT AND HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM.

I THINK THAT THE OVERLYING ISSUE IS THAT DONALD TRUMP IS, HAS AN ISSUE, YOU KNOW MAYBE CONSTITUTIONALLY INCAPABLE OF JUST SAYING, LAYING HIS MARKERS DOWN AND SAYING THE SAME WAY BILL CLINTON DID.

SAYING LOOK, I DID CERTAIN THINGS I'M NOT PROUD OF OR I DID CERTAIN THINGS HERE.

MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE CLEAR ABOUT THEM.

HOWEVER, THERE'S NO UNDERLYING CRIME HERE.

HE'S INCAPABLE OF DOING THAT.

YOU LOOK BACK TO BILL CLINTON'S ME MEA CULPA, ADVISERS DIDN'T THINK HIS WENT FAR ENOUGH.

THE PRESIDENT HAS A LEGITIMATE ARGUMENT HERE.

THINK ULTIMATELY HERE'S HIS ISSUE, THESE HEARINGS TO CONTINUE TO DO THIS I DON'T THINK THEY WILL BE THE KNOCKOUT PUNCH TO THAT 35% OF HIS BASE, BUT THAT'S ONLY 35%. AND THESE ARE CONSISTENT AND THE PRESIDENT OF BOXING METAPHORS, THESE ARE JABS AND RIB HITS.

YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO WOUND HIM.

EVEN IF THERE'S AN IMPEACHMENT AND HE DOESN'T GET THROWN OUT OF OFFICE, IT'S STILL ALL THIS STUFF SWIRLING IS GOING TO HURT HIM FOR 2020?

IT COULD IF HE DOESN'T HAVE THE DELIVERABLES THAT HE HAD DURING HIS FIRST TERM TO KEEP REPUBLICANS IN CHECK WITH HIM.

HE DOESN'T HAVE ANOTHER SUPREME COURT VACANCY.

THEY'RE SAYING THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE AN ECONOMIC SLOWDOWN.

NORTH KOREA ISN'T GOING AWAY.

I WOULD SAY, THOUGH, I WORKED FOR DONALD TRUMP, I HAVE BEEN AN ADVERSARY OF HIM.

I WAS SUED BY HIM.

DON'T UNDERESTIMATE DONALD TRUMP.

AND ANYBODY UNDERESTIMATES HIM.

I THINK HE WILL MAKE IT TO 2020.

ULTIMATELY, I DON'T THINK HE GETS INDICTED.

WE DON'T KNOW WHO HE IS GOING TO BE RUNNING AGAINST, AND I THINK A LOT OF THE CANDIDATES HE HAS A VERY GOOD CHANCE TO BEAT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU.

♪ ♪ ♪ I AM STRONG ♪ I AM INVINCIBLE ♪ INVINCIBLE ♪ I AM WOMAN ♪

IRSHAD MONJI'S GROUNDBREAKING BOOK 'THE TROUBLE WITH ISLAM' MADE HER ONE OF THE MOST RESPECTED AND REVILED THINKERS AROUND THE WORLD.

HER STRENGTH LIES IN HER SEEMING MASTERY OF MORAL COURAGE.

SHE'S HAD MANY LABELS THROWN AT HER AND SHE REFUSES TO WEAR JUST ONE.

REFUGEE, MUSLIM, LESBIAN, PROFESSOR AND ALSO FOR SOME, HER ETHIC.

SHE JOINS US WITH HER NEW BOOK 'DON'T LABEL ME' A CONVERSATION FOR DIVIDED TIMES.HERETIC.

SHE JOINS US WITH HER NEW BOOK 'DON'T LABEL ME' A CONVERSATION FOR DIVIDED TIMES.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT WE AS A SOCIETY FIND LABELS SO SEDUCTIVE.

IT'S NOT JUST WE AS A SOCIETY, IT'S HUMANITY.

WE THINK FIRST AND FOREMOST EMOTIONALLY.

AND BIOLOGICALLY SPEAKING THE EASIEST EMOTION TO HAVE IS FEAR.

NOW PROP THAT UP WITH THE FACT THAT WE ARE ALL IMMERSED IN DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES THAT ARE DELIBERATELY DESIGNED TO AMP UP OUR EMOTIONS.

AND THEN FINISH IT ALL OFF WITH THE FACT THAT VERY FEW OF US HAVE EVER BEEN TAUGHT TO SORT OF BE AWARE OF OUR EMOTIONS, LET ALONE EXPRESS THEM CONSTRUCTIVELY.

SO IN THIS TOXIC CAULDRON, LABELS BECOME CONVENIENT TOOLS.

WITH WHICH TO SORT OF INDULGE OUR EMOTIONS AND AVOID REFLECTION.

YOU TALK ABOUT SOME OF THESE.

I'M GOING TO GET TO THEM IN A MOMENT.

WE TALK ABOUT AN INCREDIBLE CONVERSATION, IT'S A UNIQUE CONVERSATION.

THAT YOU'RE HAVING, SOMETHING THAT WAS VERY SPECIAL TO YOU, YOUR DOG NO LONGER WITH US.

NO.

BUT A CONVERSATION THROUGHOUT THIS, AND I HEARD YOU TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT IT'S WHAT HELPED TO STIMULATE THE IDEA BEHIND THAT.

ABSOLUTELY.

YOU KNOW I JUST MENTIONED THE MOST DANGEROUS FOUR-LETTER F-WORD IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE AND THAT'S FEAR.

BELIEVE IT OR NOT, I GREW UP WITH A VERY UNHEALTHY FEAR OF DOGS.

ONE YEAR I WAS HAVING PARTICULARLY TOUGH TIME WITH MY HEALTH AND MY THEN-PARTNER, NOW-WIFE, LAURA, SAID IRSHAD, YOU HAVE GOT TO EVOLVE.

YOU'VE GOT TO GET PAST YOUR FEAR.

LET'S ADOPT A RESCUE DOG AND YOU'LL SEE WHAT A HEALER THAT DOG CAN BE.

WELL, HOW CAN I POSSIBLY TEACH MORAL COURAGE, IF I'M NOT WILLING TO GO FIRST?

SO WE BROUGHT LILY HOME AND JACK, ALL I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT FOR THE TWO PRECIOUS YEARS THAT I HAD WITH HER, I LEARNED NOT ONLY WHERE MY OWN FEARS OF DOGS BEGGING TO BE OVERCOME, BUT WHAT I DID OVERCOME THOSE FEARS, I LEARNED SO MUCH FROM LILY.

THE VALUE FOR EXAMPLE OF JUST GETTING OUT OF OUR DEVICES, CLOSING UP THE LAPTOP AND GETTING INTO THE GRASS AND PLAYING.

YES, I KNOW, FOR ANIMAL LOVERS, THAT'S A NO-BRAINER.

BUT UNDERSTAND THAT TODAY, WE ARE ALL DOING THIS.

AND YOU KNOW, IF WE CAN JUST REALIZE THAT BY SLOWING DOWN, TAKING A DEEP BREATH, ACTUALLY WHAT WE WIND UP DOING IS TRANSCENDING THE FEAR-BASED PART OF THE BREAK.

SO THAT EVEN WHEN WE'RE ENGAGING SOMEBODY WE DISAGREE WITH, THE FIRST THING TO DO AND THE BEST THING TO DO, IS TO JUST BREATHE.

TRUE, SO SIMPLE.

WE TALKED ABOUT THE NOTION OF LABELS.

YOU MENTIONED THAT THE CONCEPT OF TRIBALISM.

WE'RE KIND OF HARD-WIRED FOR THAT.

AND YOU LOOK AT THAT IN WAYS THAT MANIFEST ITSELF.

YOU AND I HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE.

TALK ABOUT HOW PEOPLE DON'T HAVE CONVERSATIONS ANY MORE.

IT'S AS IF FEAR, WE'RE FEARFUL OF SOMEONE REJECTING OUR OPINIONS.

WE DON'T WANT TO ACCEPT THEIR OPINIONS.

RIGHT.

HOW MUCH OF THIS DO YOU THINK FLOWS FROM WHAT WE SEE AND I'M GOING TO TALK ABOUT BOTH PARTIES IN WASHINGTON.

YOU BET.

YOU CANNOT HAVE NOW A DISAGREEMENT POLITICAL WITHOUT VILIFYING THE PERSON YOU'RE DISAGREEING WITH.

IT'S BEEN DESCRIBED OFTEN AS THE POLITICS OF PERSONAL DESTRUCTION.

RIGHT, RIGHT.

HAS THAT ALWAYS BEEN OR HAS IT BECOME MORE ENHANCED LATELY?

WELL I'M GOING TO GUESS THAT YOU WOULD AGREE WITH ME THAT IT HAS BECOME MORE ENHANCED LATELY.

WE'VE BEEN LIVING WITH THE POLITICS OF PERSONAL DESTRUCTION AND I BELIEVE THAT WAS BILL CLINTON'S PHRASE FROM WAY BACK WHEN.

WE'VE BEEN LIVING WITH THAT FOR A LONG TIME.

BUT IF YOU'RE WONDERING WHY IT'S BECOME EVEN WORSE NOW, I WOULD SAY THAT SOCIAL MEDIA AND THE IMPULSIVE SORT OF TRIGGERS THAT IT FEEDS TO US, HAS MADE THINGS THAT MUCH WORSE.

WHICH IS WHY AND I THINK THIS IS WHERE YOU WERE GOING, LET'S GET OUR HEADS OUT OF THAT MONITOR OR THAT SCREEN.

AND ACTUALLY SPEAK WITH ONE ANOTHER FACE TO FACE.

YOU KNOW WHAT, JACK?

I TELL A STORY IN THIS BOOK ABOUT TWO YOUNG PEOPLE, ONE, A BIRACIAL HIP HOP ARTIST.

THE OTHER, A WHITE GUY.

BOTH OF THEM COMPLETELY MISSISSIPPI STATE.

SEEING SOME --

IN THE CORNER HAS THE CONFEDERATE FLAG.

SHE WANTS IT TO CHANGE.

HE DOESN'T.

SOMETHING THAT SHE SAYS AND DOES GOES VIRAL.

HE GETS IN TOUCH WITH HER.

SHE INVITES HIM TO THE BACK YARD.

TO SIT DOWN AND TALK.

LET'S DISCUSS THIS.

BY THE END OF THAT EXPERIENCE, IT'S NOT THAT HE CHANGES HIS MIND THAT WOULD BE TOO EASY A CONCLUSION.

IT'S THAT HE REALIZES THAT HE CARES MORE ABOUT HER THAN HE DOES ABOUT THE FLAG.

THAT IS WHAT HUMAN-TO-HUMAN RELATIONSHIPS OR HUMAN-TO-LILY RELATIONSHIPS CAN DO FOR US.

HOW DO WE GET OURSELVES AWAY FROM -- I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING YOU SAY IS SORT OF -- WE LIKE TO BE SURROUNDED BY LIKE-MINDED PEOPLE.

WE LIKE TO BE SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE WHO SOUND LIKE US.

WHO THINK LIKE US.

WHO LOOK LIKE US.

SO HOW DO WE GET OURSELVES TO A DIFFERENT PLACE?

EVEN THOUGH THAT IS ALL REINFORCED BY YOU KNOW YOU LOOK AT THE NEWS AND PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THERE ARE A LOT OF VENUES THAT JUST HAVE AN AGENDA AND THEY'RE BEATING THE DRUM.

OPINION HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN INTEGRAL PART OF JOURNALISTS.

WHAT TROUBLES ME IS WE'RE SEEING MORE OPINION AND LESS OF FACT, LESS OF DISCUSSION.

HOW DO WE GET PEOPLE TO REMOVE THEMSELVES FROM THE ECHO CHAMBERS AND TO BE WILLING TO SIT AND LISTEN?

IT MIGHT NOT CHANGE THEIR MIND.

AT LEAST BE WILLING TO LISTEN.

EXACTLY.

HOW DO WE DO THAT?

FIRST OF ALL IT BEGINS WITH EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US.

IN OTHER WORDS, INSTEAD OF POINTING FINGERS, AT SO-AND-SO BECAUSE HE DOESN'T LISTEN TO ME, ASK YOURSELF -- HOW AM I CONTRIBUTING TO THIS PROBLEM?

MEANING IF I'M EYE-ROLLING.

IF I'M BERATING INSTEAD OF RELATING, IF I'M LABELLING THIS PERSON, THEN I HAVE FIXED HIM IN PLACE.

I HAVE FROZEN HIM IN TIME.

WHAT MOTIVATION HAVE I GIVEN THAT OTHER PERSON TO THEN LOWER HIS EMOTIONAL DEFENSES SO THAT HE CAN HEAR ME?

SO HERE'S WHAT I SAY.

WHEN YOU ARE ENTERING A CONVERSATION OR WORKING TO ENTER INTO A CONVERSATION, WITH SOMEBODY WHO PROFOUNDLY DISAGREES WITH YOU ON SOMETHING YOU ARE PASSIONATE ABOUT, ASK THEM -- TELL ME, WHAT AM I MISSING ABOUT YOUR PERSPECTIVE?

DON'T GO INTO MAKING STATEMENTS, ASK SINCERE QUESTIONS.

AND THEN LISTEN.

LISTEN TO UNDERSTAND, NOT TO WIN.

ONCE AGAIN, A VERY PROVOCATIVE, THOUGHTFUL AND I THINK EXTRAORDINARILY HELPFUL BOOK.

OUR THANKS TO YOU AND TO LILY.

I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY, I JUST HEARD FROM LILY, SHE GIVES HER THANKS RIGHT BACK.

THANKS VERY MUCH.

YOU BE WELL.

♪ THE TIMES, THEY ARE WHAT-CHANGIN' ♪ ♪ ♪

> LAST NIGHT WE BLOUT YOU PART ONE OF MY INTERVIEW WITH ACTOR, WRITER AND DIRECTOR ALAN ALDA.

FOR DECADES ALDA HAS BEEN WORKING WITH SCIENTISTS, TEACHING THEM HOW TO BE BETTER COMMUNICATORS.

NOW HE'S SHARING WHAT HE'S LEARNED ABOUT THE FUNDAMENTALS OF TRUE COMMUNICATION IN HIS BOOK 'IF I UNDERSTOOD YOU, WOULD I HAVE THIS LOOK OTT MY FACE?'

THE ART AND SCIENCE OF RELATING AND COMMUNICATING.

IN PART TWO, ALDA TALKS ABOUT EMPATHY AS THE KEY TO EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION, AND HOW THE CAST OF 'M-A-S-H' USE D COMEDY TO CREATE EMPATHY ON THE SET.

I BEGIN THIS PART OF THE CONVERSATION BY ASKING ALDA IF HE HAS HIS OWN TECHNIQUE FOR BUILDING GREATER EMPATHY.

I WANTED TO SEE IF I CAN DEVELOP SOMETHING THAT I CAN DO AS KIND OF A HOMEWORK EXERCISE, SORT OF INTERNAL GYMNASIUM WORK WHERE I CAN PRACTICE DURING THE DAY.

I STARTED GOING AROUND AS I WALK THROUGH MANHATTAN, I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE PEOPLE IN THE STREET WERE FEELING.

AS I PASSED THEM.

YOU LOOK AT THEIR FACE, YOU SEE SOMEBODY IS DISTRACTED AND MAYBE UPSET ABOUT SOMETHING.

WHAT ARE THEY WORRIED ABOUT?

THEN I TALKED WITH A PSYCHOLOGIST, WHO HEARD ME EXPLAIN WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO.

TRYING TO INCREASE MY EMPATHY BY THIS, THIS EXERCISE I WAS DOING.

AND HE SAID YOU KNOW, I'D LIKE TO STUDY THAT.

SO WE DID A STUDY AND HE HAD A POPULATION OF PEOPLE.

THAT HE TESTED FOR EMPATHY.

WITH A STANDARD TEST.

AND HE HAD THEM GO OUT AND REPORT BACK EVERY TIME THEY HAD AN ENCOUNTER WHERE THEY TRIED TO FIGURE OUT.

DOING WHAT YOU WERE DOING.

DOING WHAT I WAS DOING.

AT THE END THEY TOOK THE EMPATHY TEST AGAIN AND THE RESULTS SHOWED THAT IT'S NOT A BAD IDEA TO TRY IT.

AND THEY IMPROVED.

YOU WERE NOT ONLY JUST LOOKING AT THEM AND TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT.

YOU WERE LABELLING THEM.

I WAS LABELLING THEM.

IT TURNED OUT THAT SOMETIMES JUST NOTICING THEM, NOTICING THE COLOR OF THEIR HAIR, WHETHER THE WOMAN IS WEARING EARRINGS OR WHAT COLOR CLOTHES THEY HAVE ON, THAT SEEMS TO INCREASE YOUR, YOUR EMPATHY AT LEAST FOR A WHILE.

AS WELL.

AND THE FUNNY THING WAS, I WAS TELLING SOMEBODY WHO WORKS WITH US WHO TEACHES WORKSHOPS, AND SHE SAID, I WAS IN A VERY HIGH-PRESSURE MEETING WITH LAWYERS.

AND I WAS GETTING NERVOUS.

ANXIOUS.

AND I WASN'T CONNECTING WITH THEM.

THE CONVERSATION WASN'T GOING THAT WELL.

AND SHE SAID WAIT A MINUTE, SHE SORT OF CLOSED HER EYES, SHE SAID DO I EVEN KNOW WHAT COLOR SUIT THIS PERSON IS WEARING?

SHE LOOKED BACK AT THEM REALLY TOOK THEM IN MORE.

AND THINGS STARTED TO CHANGE.

AND SHE SAID THE CONVERSATION WENT GREAT AFTER THAT.

THAT'S THE KIND OF EXPERIENCE THAT I'VE HAD.

AS I ALLOW THE OTHER PERSON IN.

NOW YOU DON'T TALK MUCH ABOUT YOUR HISTORY AS AN ACTOR IN THIS BOOK.

BUT DO YOU TELL THE STORY ABOUT M.A.S.H. AND THE CAST, HOW IT WAS UNIQUELY CONDUCIVE TO EMPATHY AND TRUE COMMUNICATION.

HOW DID YOU GET THERE?

PEOPLE OFTEN ASK ME WHAT MADE 'M.A.S.H.' WORK.

THE REASON IT WORKED WAS THE BASIC POINT THAT BASIC IDEA THAT WE WERE PLAYING OUT REAL PEOPLE'S LIVES AND WE, WE TRIED TO TELL THE REAL STORIES AS SILLY AS IT SOMETIMES BECAME.

IT WAS STILL ABOUT LIFE AND DEATH.

AND I THINK THAT'S THE MAIN REASON.

BUT THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THE PLAYING, THAT THE ACTORS DID.

THE ACTING THAT WE DID.

THAT WAS THE RESULT OF A CONNECTION WE HAD.

AND WE GOT THAT CONNECTION THROUGH DOING SOMETHING SIMILAR TO WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

WHICH WAS, WE DIDN'T GO TO OUR DRESSING ROOMS BETWEEN SHOTS.

BECAUSE THEY TAKE AN HOUR TO LIGHT A SHOT.

WE, MOST OF THE TIME, SAT IN A CIRCUMSTANCE UNTIL CHAIRS AND MADE FUN OF EACH OTHER.

WE JUST LAUGHED.

AND IF YOU LAUGH AND LAUGH AND LAUGH, WHEN YOU'RE LAUGHING TOGETHER, YOU'RE NOT HOSTILE WITH EACH OTHER.

YOU'RE OPEN, YOU'RE VULNERABLE WHEN YOU LAUGH.

THAT'S WHY A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BE TOUGH GUYS DON'T LAUGH.

THEY DON'T CRACK A SMILE.

THEY'RE MORE SUPERIOR THAN THIS MOMENT OF OPENNESS AND JOCULARITY.

YOU WRITE IN THE BOOK THAT WRITERS CAN ACHIEVE EMPATHY WITH THEIR READERS.

LIKE SITTING IN FRONT --

HOW DO YOU DO THAT?

IT'S BASED ON THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN MAKE A GOOD ESTIMATE OF WHAT THE PERSON IS THINKING AND FEELING DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU SAY TO THEM FIRST.

YOU SEE, YOU WRITE THE FIRST SENTENCE, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING TO THEIR BRAIN WITH THAT FIRST SENTENCE.

WHERE ARE THEY IN THEIR HEAD?

IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU ARE ACTUALLY COMMUNICATING WITH A LIVE PERSON WHEN YOU WRITE THIS, AND YOU'RE A LITTLE LESS CONCERNED WITH EXACTLY HOW YOU WANT TO SAY WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY.

AND YOU'RE MORE CONCERNED WITH -- HOW WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY LANDS ON THE PERSON WHO IS DOING THE READING.

AND IT IS IMPORTANT WHAT YOU SAY.

BUT HOW IT LANDS AND MAKE IT MORE EFFECTIVE.

SO I THINK I FOUND THAT WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE PERSON AT THE OTHER END OF THE LENS OR AT THE OTHER END OF MY KEYBOARD, OR JUST IN THE SPACE BETWEEN US AT THE OTHER END OF THAT SPACE IF I THINK ABOUT THEM, HOW THEY'RE GETTING IT, WHAT THEY'RE GOING THROUGH, IT MAKES SOMETHING HAPPEN BETWEEN US.

AND THEN YOU'RE BETTER ABLE TO ANSWER WHAT I REALLY HAVE TO SAY.

YOU'RE NOT ANSWERING SOMETHING, YOU'RE NOT ANSWERING DEFENSIVELY SO MUCH.

I'M NOT DEFENSE ABOUT WHAT YOU MIGHT SAY TO ME.

IT'S A MORE OPEN CONVERSATION.

ALAN, THINK IT'S SAFE TO SAY, THAT IN OUR LIFETIMES, THIS COUNTRY HAS NEVER BEEN MORE DIVIDED.

YEAH.

AND THE UNWILLINGNESS TO EVEN BE OPEN TO COMMUNICATION, I MEAN PEOPLE ARE BEING SHOUTED DOWN AT UNIVERSITIES BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR THEM.

RIGHT.

HOW DO WE DO A MASSIVE INJECTION OF EMPATHY IN COMMUNICATION SKILLS IN AN ENVIRONMENT LIKE WE ARE?

I DON'T KNOW.

I WOULDN'T BE SO ARROGANT AS TO SAY THAT THIS BOOK I'VE WRITTEN WILL FIX THE COUNTRY.

IT WILL FIX THE PEOPLE WHO READ IT.

IT'S, I MUST SAY, THAT WHEN PEOPLE, WHEN TENSIONS ARE TOUGH, I DON'T THINK, I DON'T THINK IT'S HELPED TO TAKE A DEFENSIVE OR AGGRESSIVE ATTITUDE.

I THINK LISTENING, REALLY LISTENING AND REALLY LISTENING IN A WAY THAT'S KIND OF RADICAL, WILL, WILL DAMP DOWN THE TENSIONS.

THE BOOK IS, 'IF I UNDERSTOOD YOU, WOULD I HAVE THIS LOOK ON MY FACE?'

I GUARANTEE IF YOU READ IT IT YOU'LL BE MORE EMPATHETIC.

I LOVE IT THAT YOU FELT IT CHANGED YOU.

THAT'S SO GOOD.

ALAN, THANK YOU, IT'S BEEN A THRILL TALKING TO YOU.

> 'METROFOCUS' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY JAMES AND MERRILL TISH, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B.

PROGRAM.

BERNARD AND IRENE SCHWARTZ.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY -- ♪

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