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 Sound and Fury: General Discussion [all categories]
 Sound and Fury
 Sound and Fury: The Film (Page 1)
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elizowen Administrator Posts: 17 |
posted 10-10-2000 09:42 AM
  
Your reactions to the documentary. |
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diamond New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 01-11-2001 11:26 PM
I saw the movie Sound and Fury today and I left feeling a bit hopeless. During the panel discussion afterwards, a hearing woman stood up and made the comment that she couldn’t understand what Deaf people meant when they spoke about “loss of identity”. I think it is hard for many hearing people to imagine any identity other than a hearing identity. In those people’s minds, if you are D/deaf, you are a defective hearing person. It will take years of education for hearing people to understand the possibility of someone having an identity other than theirs. Maybe most people never will. Historically, we all know that any one who is “different” from the majority group is looked down upon and pressured to conform to the majority. But it’s more than that. As a hearing person with children, I can understand parents wanting to have children like themselves. Even Deaf people want to have Deaf children. I would compare it to having a child that looks different but that’s not it. The issue is communication. Parents need to be able to communicate with their children. Since 90% of deaf children have hearing parents, what can be done? Even if they choose a cochlear implant the child will be close to two years at best before there is even the possibility of any real communication happening, IF the implant is successful. These children need to have real communication/language RIGHT AWAY! I agree with those that say parents should wait until the child is older to make this kind of decision. Research so far shows that the implants are not fully successful most of the time anyway. I am concerned that these cochlear implant babies are at risk of growing up without feeling like they fit in with either the hearing or the Deaf world. It is crucial for the parents to progress beyond their grief to a state of acceptance of their child’s deafness. They must look towards the future in a positive light; if the child and the family are to have happy lives. Hans Furth wrote “The lovely healthy hearing boy has died and the lovely healthy deaf boy is born”. My belief is that they have already lost their hearing child. Why not give the child the tools it needs to develop into a whole fulfilled human being? I also believe that a hearing family that supports its child’s D/deafness will more often end up with a stronger and more fulfilling relationship than not. As in any family situation, the child that is loved unconditionally for who they are, is the child that blossoms and evolves into a happy loving individual that holds the family in high regard. The consequences are far reaching and long lasting in a family that cannot communicate. On a more positive note, in Sweden, a law was passed in 1987, under the advice of the Deaf community, recognizing SW.S.L. as the nations official sign language. ALL parents of deaf children are required to take SW.S.L. classes, and the government sponsors day care centers where D/deaf children have caregivers that know sign language. I think this is very exciting, and can only hope that our country will eventually find the fortitude to take a similar path. Empowering Deaf Americans through the use of ASL from birth, is the only way to truly address their needs, needs that are basic human rights, needs that have been denied for such a long, long time. |
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Resju Member Posts: 3 |
posted 02-19-2001 12:44 PM
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Resju Member Posts: 3 |
posted 02-19-2001 12:47 PM
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Resju Member Posts: 3 |
posted 02-19-2001 01:26 PM
I saw the movie Sound and Fury today and I have some comments regarding the material. I am a hearing parent of a deaf child. When my child was diagnosed at 11 months old we were referred to an oral school. My child immediately began in the parent infant program and began wearing hearing aids. By age five he had fair abilities to hear and understand simple words with just hearing aids. However, this school always took the position that if you signed to the child, he would not become as proficient or maximize his available hearing. At age five my wife and I had become frustrated with the per se experts. We were barely able to communicate with our son and assist him with his day to day frustrations associated with the inability to communicate clearly. We advised the school that we wanted our son to learn sign lanquage and continue his other developments contemporaneously therewith. We evaluated all the options and decided that total communication was the best approach. We didn't care what the deaf community's position was as they appeared to be too single minded, sign or nothing. We also didn't care for the professionals that supported the oral approach, all audition and no sign. Both sides were and still are very polarized in their views. All we wanted was to be able to communicate with our child and get good advice without partisan politics. By age six, we knew we had made the right decision. Our son was about to enter first grade and we were traveling around visiting various schools for the hearing impaired. Over all we were very dissappopinted by what we saw and learned. Educating the deaf in these environments did not reflect a fraction of what students in public scholls were being taught. The classes typically consisted of groupings of children that had years of ages seperating them. Notwithstanding the age variables, the information being presented was the same to all the children. The only thing I can truly say positive about that experience was the fact that the staff all appeared geneuinely to care for the children. However, mothering and caring alone do not equate to educating. We decided to mainstream our child. Since doing so he has excelled in schooll and is always around the top five in his class. However, he lives in a hearing world without interaction with the deaf or hearing impaired. He always has. We have no other deaf members of the family and where we lived there existed no nucleaous of deaf culture. Even if we wanted our son to be exposed to the deaf culture, there really was not one available for him. His teachers have always incorporated sign as part of the class lesson and so far his class mates have been very supportive and responsive. However, the ignorant do exit and he gets his fare share of abuse from other students. This abuse is no more than any other student may receive because they wear glasses, are too short or clumsy. In any event, we too made the tough decision to get the cochlear implant. We avoided it for some time for fear that what audition he had with hearing aids would be lost. We evaluated the pros and cons extensively over a one year period. We considered the deaf cultures opinion, but, again it was rejected. Their all or nothing approach is simply not in the best interest of our child. We also considered the professionals opinion that if we get the implant, all signing must cease. Again, we rejected this opinion as to narrowly tailored. We decided to get the implant for a very simple reason; opporunities. Face the facts, we live in a hearing/communicating society. This fact will not change. If our son is to have the same opportunities as other children, we needed to provide him with every available resource to do so. It is our hope that our son will grow up and be able to sign, lip read and speak articulately enough to garner both a good education and a good job when he is older. I found it intreresting in the film that a couple of the deaf individuals who were adamant about not allowing children to be implanted each admitted that their opportunties for advancment within the working world were limted. With this knowledge, why would they think it is in their child's best interest to have similar limitations placed on them. I am not saying that people can not be happy doing anything, but, the question becomes whether it is appropriate to allow a person who is otherwise capable of succeeding without limitations, to have them placed on them because they can not communicate with the hearing world? Life is tough enough and opportunities are far and few between. We saw one to help our child and we took it. All I can truly say is that no one is either right or wrong about this subject. We all make decision for ourselves and our families. We did not elect to have our child implanted because of anything any special interest group had to say about the subject. We had him implanted to try to provide him more opportuntiies to live a higher quality of life. If he was paralyzed and we could have that cured, we would cure it. If he was blind and we could allow him to see, we would do so. Being hearing impaired is no different. For years the disabled have fought hard for rights to interact in and with the public like every other citizen. The ADA has done wonderful things to help this integration. The intent and desire of the disabled communities for years has been to provide their members with the same opportunities provided the non-disabled. They truly desired to put an end to the isolation so many disabled people suffered. It almost appears that the deaf community desires just the opposite. I will not jude them in this decision but, they should not judge me for mine. The only person with such right is our child. When the day comes, we will accept his judgement and respect his decision as to how he desires to live his life. But as parents, it is both our duty and respibsibility to provide any and all opportuntiies to our son to help him grow into both a successful and well developed member of all societies, not just one. Our son was implanted at age 9. He is eleven now and his vocabulary, audition and speech have improved a thousand percent. He even has begun to use a telephone on a very limited basis. He does not speak or hear like a hearing person. He may never do so. However, he can communicate with hearing people and that has already improved his quality of life. |
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Theresa B. Smith Member Posts: 3 |
posted 03-16-2001 03:03 AM
A few observations about the film: First, Heather (the six year old deaf child of the deaf family)was clearly very bright, verbal and social. The scenes with the deaf children with implants, on the other hand focused on their speech rather than their verbal skills and langauge - everything was rote (e.g. singing or reading from a book clearly read before). I would have liked more scenes with these children simply interacting, socializing. Another observation I had is that although we learned what the occupations were of Peter (the Deaf father) and some of his Deaf friends, we did not learn the occupation of his hearing brother (or indeed his own father). Since there was so much talk about opportunities that hearing people have that deaf people don't I was curious to know what the occupations of these other men were. I noticed that the hearing grandmother talked more about the frustrations of raising a deaf child (i.e. her own frustrations) than those of her son as a justification for the implants. I am not questioning her desire for opportunities etc. for her deaf son and her grandchildren. I am not questioning her motives. She clearly had worked very hard to do her best which is all any mother can do. I just noticed that her feelings about deafness seemed to come more from her own experiences as a parent and less from an understanding of her son's life as a deaf person. Indeed, she seemed to have a hard time listening to him - which I found to be ironic. [This message has been edited by Theresa B. Smith (edited 03-16-2001).] |
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Theresa B. Smith Member Posts: 3 |
posted 03-16-2001 03:16 AM
In response to Resju's post I would like to commend him and his wife for their continuing evaluation of their decisions. I would, however, like to respectfully disagree with his depiction of the Deaf community's perspective. It is much more sophisticated and complex than it is portrayed "in the media" including in this excellent documentary. As stated by Diamond it takes time to understand the perspective of people from another culture. There is a temptation to be reductionist. Let me just say that as Resju found, the focus on speech often derails true education and the idea of social skills (not manners but true social skills, the ability to assert one's needs, ideas and feelings in effective ways) is often overlooked or lost. When Deaf people emphasize a focus on ASL it is a shorthand for the freedom to be themselves and not forced to conform to an ill fitting way of life, a reduced life in which communication is reduced to lipreading. I will stop here because I find myself getting lost in the complexity of the topic and my point is simply that the Deaf community's perspective is more complex than a political cry for "My Side". |
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John G Winkle New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 03-23-2001 01:49 PM
I just saw the movie last night. I am a father of a 4 year old, deaf, daughter. We are considering the implants so that our daughter will have the best chance for opportunities. My view is that if we get her the implants and she decides later that she does not want to hear, she can not use them. If she does not get them though she will not have the choice. We still want her to learn Sign and use Sign as she is deaf and always will be. We just also want her to be able to communicate with speech if she wants. I am very interested in hearing from other parents about the decision they made for their children, the reasons behind the decision, and how the child is doing now. Thanks, [This message has been edited by John G Winkle (edited 03-23-2001).] |
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kalekona New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 05-08-2001 07:57 PM
I guess my husband and I are in the minority. We are hearing parents of a 15 year old daughter who is profoundly deaf. Yet we have always believed that it should be her choice to have an implant or not to. Although communication is vital so is self estem. We felt that to give an infant a CI would be the same as telling them they were defective. It would take away their chance to be a part of their culture. To find themself. As for the film well what can I say- Ok as for the grandmother-what a poor excuse for a parent. I'm sorry but how angry was I when her son looked her in the eyes and realized what she had really thought about him his whole life.If anyone was abusive this was. Grandma was the instegator for the whole family. I think we have a lot to learn about excepence. And for the record without a doubt this film should have won the OSCAR!!!! |
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whistleblower Member Posts: 2 |
posted 06-28-2001 06:36 PM
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whistleblower Member Posts: 2 |
posted 06-28-2001 06:39 PM
"Kalekona" said: We felt that to give an infant a CI would be the same as telling them they were defective. Whistleblower: But they ARE defective, aren't they? SOMEBODY is going to tell them that, so why not you? This is not a good reason to deny a deaf child a CI. |
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Renee Member Posts: 2 |
posted 01-08-2002 04:39 PM
quote: I disagree with this. My friend's son was less than a year old when he went blind with cataracts. They gave him a surgery and restored his sight. I dont' see any of the blind community coming out and saying "Well, one less kid who will learn braille". I guess my friend's son will now feel like he was defective and needed to be fixed. |
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fishgetter Member Posts: 2 |
posted 01-08-2002 10:21 PM
I have several questions for the deaf parents: If your child was born blind, but could hear, and such technology existed that a simple operation would allow that child to see, would you opt for the operation or would you say "our child was born blind and we want him to experience the blind culture." I would also like to know, if your child was born hearing, and a simple operation could make him deaf, would you opt for this operation so he could be a part of the deaf culture? |
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jmj New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 01-08-2002 10:22 PM
By the end of this documentary I was in tears. I've worked with hearing parents who have a child who is deaf (birth to three). Some parents accepted the child without question and began learning sign and attempted to emerse themselves in deaf culture. Other families had a very difficult time accepting their child, and didn't want to learn sign. It is for those children that I think an implant is warranted. The ability to communicate is vital for human interaction... be it speech or sign. For families who choose to "reject" the deaf culture for their child, then giving the child an implant means the ability to communicate and interact. And the most vital period to do so is within the first years of life. |
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Wen Member Posts: 3 |
posted 01-08-2002 10:22 PM
I understand that deaf parents and grandparents would be upset. Although I disagree with them. It seemed as though they were being selfish. The parents who chose not to have their daughter get the implant seemed bothered that their daughter may some day be able to hear and have a better life. They almost seemed to want to inhibit her because of some feeling of abandonment and self esteem and rejection. Like the grandma in the movie said..."You are a parent first" They need to think of what's best for their child...not what they feel more comfortable with , but what that child will feel more comfortable in life with when thrown out into society one day. I do believe that they shouldn't deny her deaf culture and should encourage her to sign as well as speak. I understand it may be a little harder to communicate while she's learning speech, but a parent should do anything for their child to better their future. It has NOTHING to do with denying the deaf culture or "killing off" the deaf culture. It has to do with a child and the rest of their life, and the unending opportunities you would have provided them. It's not about your deaf culture abandonment issues....IT's NOT about you! It's about her or him! It's about loving your child so much that you'd do anything for them...to maybe save them a little pain in life. I have deaf friends...and let's face it..LIFE IS TOUGH when you grow up without hearing. Yes you can be successful. My friends are...but they would take hearing any day! And they can't believe a parent would purposefully want to keep their child in a silent often lonely world! |
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newmom01 New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 01-08-2002 10:39 PM
I am a new mom of a great little boy. Tomorrow i am having his hearing checked because my son does not react to noise(he is two months old). i find it hard to believe in one of the replys to the film the writer states that the grandmother did not accept her son's deafness. If you can look at the grown man and say he is a good man, that is mostly due to his upbringing, BUT HIS MOTHER. So i do not understand how you can say that this deaf boy grew into a good husband and father , then say that his mother did not influence that. I also was very surprised at how the deaf community viewed their community. My impression was that the deaf community wanted to segregate themselves from hearing people.It was either the children should remain deaf, or they would be kicked out of the deaf community. This show made me feel like the deaf community somehow wants to believe that they are better than the hearing community, when we should all be united, esspecially now. All and all I think the father said it best with his son talk at the kitchen table ; if a cripple couple had a child that could walk should they break the kid's legs so that the child would be cripple. No.We have cures for lots of things, some even cosmetic; so if we can give someone a thinner nose, why not give a child the gift of hearing. |
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iyameen1 New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 01-08-2002 10:53 PM
The film left me in tears. Heather remided me so much of my sister.I have a 17 year old sister who is profoundly deaf. I was 12 when she was born and clearly remember the day we found out that she was deaf. It has been a struggle for her to be in the midst of three hearing siblings and all hearing relatives including our parents. I don't know why my parents decided against CI, I guess they thought it was a risk to my sister. Now she goes to an oral school in England and doing very good in school, she got five 'A's, two 'B's and two 'C's in her O-levels (public exam all tenth graders take in England). She has become my hero. But I can't help but wondering, would CI had given her more opportunities to interact with her family. I'll have to find out if it's too late for her to get CI. Even though she goes to an oral school she has learnt how to sign on her own. |
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Jody New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 01-08-2002 10:54 PM
Speaking as a hearing person I can't say that I understand the Deaf person's point of view. I am sorry that they feel the way they do. However, if I had a child born Deaf, I would opt for the implant. BUT, I would also learn sign and make sure that my child did also. I would make sure that I found a community with Deaf people and expose my child to the culture. I would let my child know that I do love him/her as s/he is. There would be no doubt about it. S/He would experience both worlds..I would not try to take that away from him/her. |
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pawolflover Member Posts: 2 |
posted 01-08-2002 11:10 PM
We are all human. The words: MAJORITY and MINORITY are used to seperate one from the other, and this can sometimes be hurtful to each person involved on both sides. We as a race, the human race, can learn to adapt. |
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CliffOwashtinong Member Posts: 2 |
posted 01-08-2002 11:14 PM
quote: quote: Amazing documentary because it is a snapshot of a wide range of human reaction and developing (or stagnant) views on both sides of the argument. People must simply be given the freedom to choose without the pressure of chauvinistic-like hearing people or institutions trying to explain what "normal" or genetically superior is. Reminds me of recent American Indian history where the Lakota were not allowed to Sun Dance or speak their native tongue because it was not civilized or Christian or eugenically/racially superior. The hearing people (and deaf people) talking about 'normal' and the best possible life didn't understand and couldn't appreciate deaf culture (or hearing abilities). But it was overwhelmingly clear - at least via the perspectives stated in the documentary - that many hearing folk and their institutions were explicitly or implicitly patronizing. The choice for implants should be allowed by parents and children without duress and legal pressure and schooling should both include hearing speech and ASL. Deaf culture will survive for there are those - hearing and non-hearing - who understand that is completely acceptable and "normal" to maintain a state of being that one was born with. Deaf culture will survive and is a testament to the vital and integral diversity that the human race and its various cultures maintain. |
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alibugmom Member Posts: 3 |
posted 01-08-2002 11:24 PM
I just finished watching this documentary and I can not appropriately describe my emotions. I had to turn the channel several times because I became so angry. My 5 year old daughter has recently been implanted. If Peter had cataracts, a broken leg, or a tumor, would the deaf grandparents still feel the same. I can not imagine a mother calling her daughter "a lousy daughter" just because she wants to help her child. Obviously, the deaf grandparents are more interested in there ownselves and their feelings and not the wellbeing of the child. The deaf culture... Being deaf is a medical problem. It is a handicap just as being blind is a handicap. It is not a culture. Heather wanted an implant and was talked out of it by her parents. That is wrong. They are cheating her out of being able to hear just because they are deaf. They even moved ther family to a deaf community to keep her from choosing to have the implant and communicating with speech and sign. It seems selfish to deny hearing just because you want your child to appreciate your "culture". |
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Jade New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 01-08-2002 11:39 PM
I am teacher of the Deaf and married to a WONDERFUL Deaf man. I have worked with implanted and non-implanted kids. To be honest, implants work for some kid and not at all for others. Regardless of the type of program the kid is involved it...total speech and no sign, does not mean kids will speak intelligibly. The only real problem I had with the program was how several times I heard professionals and nonprofessionals, speaking of implants, either state or implay that they were a "cure for deafness." In no way is an implant a "cure for deafness". There is no CURE for that. Now, the implant is an aid to hearing, just as a hearing aid is. It's just that the implant is a stronger or more clear aid (I guess that's how you'd say it). I know one day my husband and I will have children, and the odds of our children being deaf are probably pretty high since my husband is genetically deaf from birth. If my children are born deaf, I really couldn't care less. And as for the implant, I am pretty sure we would not get one for our child, not because we don't want opportunities for our children or want our children to have a harder life or be oppressed, etc. etc. NO ONE wants these things for there children, but because that is a decision we have come to. As a personal choice we will just go with what God gives. And that will be that. I know the majority of hearing people don't understand, and I dunno if I fully do or not either. But deafness is more than just "not hearing." Any group of people who speak a common language are bound by a culture. This cannot be denied. The French culture is different from the English culture, heck it is even different from the Hatian culture and at least they all speak the same language. But my point is that the language people use has a larger impact on them than just the words they use and how they use them. When you are cut off from a "world"(whether it be deaf or hearing) by a language barrier...you have your own world inside, then you cannot fully understand the other world. Meaning deaf will never understand hearing, and hearing will never understand deaf...at least not fully. How can we, the genetically hearing or the genetically deaf, we have never experienced the other, fully. There is so much more I could say, but my basic feeling is..it's up to the parents. What they decide for their child is their decision, because they are the parents, one way or the other it comes down to that. |
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dan_meyers Member Posts: 3 |
posted 01-08-2002 11:51 PM
I just saw the film all the way through for the first time, although I have seen clips of it before, and certainly know the story. I am the parent of a 5 year old profoundly deaf daughter who was implanted at the age of 2 with an N24. She is doing great, most of the time people who meet her do not even know she is an implant user, because she speaks and hears virtually like any other 5 year old. It has taken a commitment to her therapy sessions from us, from our daughter and from our daughter's many teachers and therapists, not to mention her very skilled and competent surgeon. We don't think of our daughter as Deaf,deaf or hearing, but just as our daughter. She knows she can't hear without her implant, and she knows some sign language now and would like to learn more. We haven't ever stopped her from signing, and we encourage her to learn sign language thoroughly in the future, just as she also wants to learn French so she can talk to friends she from France. The fact is, she used some sign before her implant, but as she learned to speak, she stopped signing. Now she is showing an interest in learning again. What the Deaf community needs to understand is that the early years of a child's life are ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL to developing effective hearing and speech. If there is no auditory input early on, it is unlikely a child will learn to speak well, or to recognize sound well. Hearing parents of deaf children are not at all opposed to Deaf culture or ASL. We simply want our children to have every option open to them. Being able to hear and speak does not preclude one from learning ASL (or any of the other many forms of sign language used by Deaf cultures throughout the world), however not getting a cochlear implant for a child when they are born profoundly deaf can very well preclude them from ever learning to hear and speak. P.S. If, as we saw in the film, hearing children of Deaf parents are able to learn ASL very well and of course can also speak, why shouldn't it be possible for implanted Deaf children of Deaf parents be able to learn to speak very well, and of course will still know ASL from interacting with their parents? |
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Suppressio Veri New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 01-08-2002 11:53 PM
I love PBS because they offer a "fly on the wall" view of life. The parents who were considering implanting their daughter were intelligent, realists. It was obvious that the children who were denied sign language felt that they were hearing children, or different from children who used sign language. The children with implants who lacked sign language skills were uncomfortable interacting with the girl who used sign language. The older girl who had an implant and used sign language was secure with her accomplishments. The parents in the film were the determining factor for their childrens' success. Medical procedures should be investigated in the manner that the parents in the film researched the results of the implant. It is true that children learn easier at a young age and may heal faster after surgery, but people of any age have the ability to learn. People without implants and without hearing are able to speak. I was surprised to hear that doctors thought it was best for children to only speak vocally. It is insulting, and unbelievable that experts would advise against providing a tool that would expand ANY childs talents, and refer to sign language as a crutch. If my child's doctor told me that sign language was a crutch and that she could progress better without the knowledge of sign language I would ask them for a refund for that visit, and find a doctor who truly understood my child's needs. I was impressed with the city in Maryland where the family visited. I would love to find a city where I felt safe, understood and equal. |
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olsen Member Posts: 2 |
posted 01-09-2002 12:08 AM
After watching the documentary, I was very angry with the deaf parents. They refused to admit that deafness was a handicap. All they talked about was how strong the deaf culture was and how it needs to survive. The deaf culture doesn't need to survive. I hope one day, everyone is able to hear. I can't understand how these parents want to keep the world of sound from their own children. The deaf culture makes it self out to be some sort of exclusive club that everyone should want to join. Deafness and its culture is a lifestyle that is missing many things. I couldn't imagine living without music. Music has always been a huge part of my life. I couldn't imagine sitting at my piano and not being able to hear the chords. Heather's mother was so quick to say she didn't need hearing to live a happy life. Thats true, but only because she has never awoken to birds chirping, heard music, or any of the other things hearing people take for granted. I wish all deaf people could enjoy a normal life with hearing for just one day. There is no doubt in my mind that after that one day, no one would ever want to be deaf again. |
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