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Stamm44 Moderator Posts: 63 |
posted 07-30-2000 07:42 PM
  
How important at the end-of-life is belief in a deity? Can religious practices help or hinder a dying person's attempt to come to terms with his or her life? What are the best ways to sooth the soul and comfort the body? |
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chaplainjudiq Member Posts: 7 |
posted 08-20-2000 06:26 PM
I am interested in exploring how people's spiritualities can help them to deal with death, and die, peacefully. I understand spirituality to be whatever it is that brings hope and ultimate meaning to people's lives...so I would expect that there are as many possible answers to my question as there are stars in the sky! I am interested, though, in looking for broad patterns, in order to be able to facilitate the journey to death that every person must make. [This message has been edited by chaplainjudiq (edited 08-20-2000).] |
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michael5070 Member Posts: 18 |
posted 08-21-2000 09:18 AM
chaplainjudiq... You have raised an excellent topic and your statement, "I understand spirituality to be whatever it is that brings hope and ultimate meaning to people's lives..." is praiseworthy. Your clients are fortunate to have you. The "broad patterns" in human spirituality which you seek do exist and can be very useful in anticipating the needs, reactions and desires of individuals facing death. The person who expects death to end life responds to dying differently than someone who does not. The fundamentalist responds differently than the atheist, who respnds differently than the individualist and so on. But while these patters are predictable, you cannot tell from the beliefs of the group or sect what the individual's beliefs will be... you must ask. And then of course, rig for shock because the answer may not be at all what you expected. There are intensely intimate moments when a person facing death speaks almost directly from their heart. These moments are fleeting but reveal, person-to-person, the true self without its protective facade. To receive this kind of self-revelation from another human being is an honor of the highest order, and to become the type of person in whom the dying are likely to confide on this level is a struggle. Dying forces people to look at themselves in a brutally honest fashion. For them to be able to trust and relate to you, you must be willing to do the same. Keep in mind, you can't fake it... they will know. Dying changes people's thinking patterns, so to relate, you must learn to see the world as the dying do. I realize that statement has a bit of an ominous ring, but in truth, the way the dying view the world is more sensible and wondrous than the way the living see the world. You may wonder what the characteristics of the thinking patterns of the dying might be. All I can tell you is that you will know it when you experience it, and when you do, the thinking patterns of the "living" will seem peculiar indeed. |
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chaplainjudiq Member Posts: 7 |
posted 08-21-2000 01:33 PM
Michael, Thanks for taking the time to respond to my query. As it happens, I am a hospital chaplain, and I have had the blessing of many people sharing very intimately with me about their dying process. The origins of my question lie in the fact that I have been asked to consider putting together a handout on the spirituality of dying, to be included in a packet that will be made available to callers who phone in to our local pbs station after the shows are aired. This is why I am wondering about "broad" ways to approach the question of spirituality's impact on dying. Knowing this background, do you have any further thoughts? I appreciate your input! |
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michael5070 Member Posts: 18 |
posted 08-22-2000 07:27 AM
chaplainjudiq, I would be happy to discuss ideas and lend a hand with your project. Please contact me via: http://deathanddying.com |
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dbrownuu Member Posts: 6 |
posted 09-01-2000 02:09 AM
Spirituality is one of those words which lives in many contexts. In the broadest terms, for me, spirituality is one's emotional response to what one believes to be the highest or broadest truth concerning the nature of the situation in which human beings find themselves - in short, how I most deeply FEEL about what it means to be ALIVE in my time and my place, the quality of my connection with everything which was, is and will be. If my understanding of the meaning of my life is focused narrowly on my individual existence, then death becomes the ultimate threat. If, however, I have invested myself in nurturing the creative process of the universe in all the ways I can discover, then the true meaning of my life becomes enlarged to the point where my individual death is simply a natural part of a magnificant cosmic process. Rather that talking about spirituality, therefore, I would prefer to talk about spiritual development, and in the context I am suggesting here, dying gives one the supreme opportunity to celebrate the ongoing creative process of which we are all children. The goal of spiritual development is to FEEL one's connection with the creative energy of the universe and to find one's fullest life in the nurture of this creative energy. What you give away during your life lives on eternally in the creative process, in other lives enriched, in evil diminished and good enlarged. It is only what you withhold of your life and your self which is destroyed by death. Therefore for the spiritually developed person, there is nothing left for death to destroy. |
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MomMom New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 09-11-2000 01:38 AM
In my experience as a volunteer, I know that the patients and the family are greatly comforted by their belief in God. They know that He's the One to cling to in this difficult time of their lives. I've not yet met a patient or family member who has not been somewhere on their Spiritual Path. The comfort of a prayer,their favorite hymn or favorite verses from Scripture can Heal the moment. |
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jrwo New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 09-11-2000 11:12 PM
One of the most poignant memories of my mother dying (of pancreatic cancer) is of her young-adult grandchildren and some of their friends, as well as her children, our spouses, and our father, gathered around her bed singing hymns a couple of nights before she died. Even though she was medicated heavily with morphine (blessedly), I remember her becoming more alert for a little bit and telling us that one of the hymns was a favorite of hers. I know she was comforted, as were we, by her faith (& ours) that because of Jesus Christ, she would be in Heaven with God as soon as she breathed her last earthly breath. Thus, as the apostle Paul wrote in his first letter to the Corinthians (chapter 15, vs. 55) "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" I can tell you that we were immensely comforted by that fact during one of the most difficult times of our lives. |
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ForFrancine Member Posts: 3 |
posted 09-11-2000 11:59 PM
My experiences with life threatening illness unfortunately have taken away my sense of hope and ultimate meaning. Before I got sick I was a deeply spiritual person. I believed that there was a purpose to my life and to every life. But I have suffered so severely, at the hands of calloused doctors, that I no longer have hope and I cannot find meaning in my existence or in my suffering. I want to have that meaning back in my life again but nothing I do seems to help me. How can pain so severe that it makes a person scream and writhe in unrelieved agony while doctors and nurses stand by and do nothing have any meaning? My illness didn't take away my sense of spirituality; the people who were supposed to care for me did. My only hope left is that I get to die a peaceful death. For me that means not dying in a hospital. |
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MRJ New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 09-12-2000 02:14 AM
Bill Moyers expository technique of following people through their experiences to arrive at general “truths” about death, dying, pain, suffering, and the human spirit is engaging. However, it necessarily gives short-shrift to the raft of wisdom-literature on these topics. In particular, I was struck that there was no mention of the great “Tibetan Book of the Dead” (or, under better translation, “Tibetan Book of the Bardos”), or little understanding of the great philosophies, religious and mythological, that cast perspective on death as a part of life, in mythical and metaphorical terms, apart from the individual expositions. For a program that has its newsworthiness in the fact that ours is not a culture in which death is discussed or palliative care widely understood (or adequately provided), there seems to be scant attention to the factors that created that set of mores. Something on the political economy of dying in the western world might have rounded out the program. For instance, economic aspects of disease are important, in relation to the economic “value” of a worker, and in those societies where such values are so low that the phrase, “life is cheap” is applied. What’s more, time was if you were understood to be ill that you could easily lose a job or an income support for a family, etc., etc. This understand, I think, provides a context that is missing from the series exposition. MRJ |
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Uriel Ben'Kahlil New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 09-12-2000 03:44 PM
quote: As a very religious person, I have come to realize it is so important to distinguish between religion and spirituality. Religions--even my own--change and are varied. Spirituality is a constant, and its language is somewhat universal. I need not know your religion to touch your soul--or you, mine. In most religious traditions, actually, there is reference to the "God beyond God"--probably a tacit recognition that our religions do not ultimately capture the Holy, yet provide a familiar place from which we can grow spiritually. |
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laurelanne New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 09-12-2000 11:01 PM
"Can religious practices help or hinder a dying person's attempt to come to terms with his or her life? " I was with my brother when he died from an AIDS related illness in 1992 and with my father when he died of cancer in 1994. The experience for those of us around these people whom we loved and was now watching death take was totally different in these 2 instances and it had everything to do with spirituality and religion. My brother was gracious and loving and giving in his dying process. He organized 2 separate grief therapy sessions for my family and him before he died, and on his deathbed he had a goodbye "ceremony" for all of his friends and family. It was the most important and moving experience of my life. I am quite sure that he has moved on to a better place and helped all of us to deal with his passing. My father found out he had cancer a year and a half before he died. He and my mother were daily Catholic Church goers and were CONVINCED that a miracle would happen and he would get well. They would not let anyone talk about death or dying. Even in the last 2 agonizing months in the hospital, when he weighed about 80 pounds and everyone knew the time was close - we were not allowed to talk of death. It was one of the very worst experiences of my life - with so much left unsaid - waiting for "God" to intervene. In my opinion - my brother had so much more christianity and spriuality in his life and death than did my daily church-going parents and that may be why his death (or the "ignoring" of it) was so hard to be a part of for both him and the rest of us. |
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heather New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 09-13-2000 12:34 AM
quote: |
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JoyceB Member Posts: 5 |
posted 09-13-2000 01:28 AM
I have been interested in reading everyone's posts. I am in my final year of seminary and taking pastoral counseling this semester. We are discussing death and dying this week. We are struggling with the age old question of how can a loving God allow there to be such suffering and death. I think this an on-going issue with no right answer. Prior to coming to seminary, I was an RN so I have faced these situations many times. It is my plan when I graduate to be a hospital chaplain and I appreciate the opportunity to read about people's experiences and their feelings. Thank you. Also, have aging parents, these programs have personal meaning as well because I am having conversations about end of life decisions with them and because they are people with a strong spiritual life, the discussions need to consider their belief system. All insight about this is greatly appreicated. |
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jqbc Member Posts: 2 |
posted 09-13-2000 09:30 AM
quote: |
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jqbc Member Posts: 2 |
posted 09-13-2000 09:34 AM
quote: To JoyceB: I am interested in discussions regarding spirituality, chronic illness, our current attitudes on death and dying, and how to integrate "faith in theory" with "faith in the trenches". |
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chaplainjudiq Member Posts: 7 |
posted 09-13-2000 10:36 AM
ForFrancine: Your story has touched me, and I thank you for being generous enough to share it. I wish, for your sake and all of our sakes (b/c we all potentially face the nightmare that you are now living), that I had some brilliant answer to respond with. I don't, though. I only have great sadness that the medical world is so far behind the eight ball on issues of pain relief and palliative care. I hope you know that, by taking the time to tell your story, you have brought immeasurable meaning to that story...by touching others with it. Know that you are in my prayers. My great hope for you is that you will find care providers who will act with greater compassion and wisdom than those who have cared for you thus far. |
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Stamm44 Moderator Posts: 63 |
posted 09-13-2000 01:11 PM
quote: Chaplainjudiq, thanks for writing what is so hard to put into words. Francine's message calls for human kindness, and your hope is one we all share. |
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SHEILA Member Posts: 2 |
posted 09-13-2000 08:32 PM
As a hospice nurse your story is one I hear all too often. I lost my father to cancer a little over a year ago. The biggest thing that still haunts me about his death is that until I advocated for hospice care and flew to my home state of Nebraska, he spent to many weeks and years having to cope with unrelieved pain. I now have taken up a personal crusade to make a difference for other people's fathers and mothers. I am only one but I feel if enough people ban together across this nation and let it be known this practice is no longer going to be tolerated. My reasoning is also a selfish one, one day I will travel your path, that of dying and I only hope and pray they have it right! As for you in the here and now have you considered hospice care? They could help you in finding care providers that are willing to address your pain. Don't allow the system to break your spirit. You are important and still make a difference each day to those lives you touch. I feel strongly that once you discover pain control you will find a rebirth of your spirituality. My thoughts and prayers go with you this day. |
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Jean Rodenbough New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 09-13-2000 09:50 PM
This series is excellent -- and I hope that our Presbytery will buy at least two sets of the video to have available for congregations. As a former hospice chaplain and bereavement counselor, and also a hospital chaplain, I keep looking for the chaplain to appear. The absence of a chaplain in the hospice and hospital scenarios is puzzling. The threefold support of hospice is physical, social/emotional, and spiritual. So when you show the medical staff and the social workers, I keep looking for that third component -- a very central part of the hospice care for patients and caregivers. Please don't overlook this important part of the team care!! The Rev. Jean Rodenbough |
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aicha New Member Posts: 1 |
posted 09-13-2000 11:27 PM
I could not help but to be amazed at the responces to the question about death. It is an amazing thought to know that we will all die one day but rarely do people imagine it or what it will be like for themselves. We all have experienced death through others but we don't contemplate our own death and that is truely for me when as people we become HUMAN BEINGS. It is then, at deaths door, that we realize or think about what this was all for. And as my GOD says in my holy book, "If you think you can control anything then bring back life after we have taken it away, and you will NEVER bring it back." I find it interesting that in the world we live in today people do not see that in reality you have little control in our life. For example, we must eat, drink, go to the restroom, sleep and many other things that even if we fight it we cannot live if we don't do these things, but in mans arrogance we think that we have some control and truely we do not. In my belief we realize that as physical bodies, we have already submited to GOD,because our bodies submit to the laws he has set down so we can exist, but as we have been given the ability to chose to mentally submit is the free will we have been given in this life, but ultimitly you will stand before GOD and explain to GOd why you did what you did and he is just when taking account. Pain and suffering, for me in my religion is a purification for my sins in this life and a test to see if I will stay firm in my belief no matter what comes my way.GOd has said "do you think you can say you believe in me and you won't be tested?" Many have been tested before you, even the messengers and prophets of GOD so why do we think we won't be tested? Truely GOD says that his mercy is over his wrath and so if you turn to GOD he is every forgiving and most merciful and GOD says "If my servant asks about me tell him I am always near!" We must trust in GOd and turn towards our meeting with him and associate no partners with him. GOD is the only one worthy of worship and GOD is ever watchful over us all. Nothing happens, not even a leaf falls that he doesn't know about.This life is truely a test for us all. Do not let this life make you forget about GOD. |
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carolsel Member Posts: 15 |
posted 09-14-2000 12:32 AM
This is for ForFrancine: I want you to know I also care about what is happening to you. I share chaplainjudiq's thoughts. I am so sorry you have been ill-treated by the very ones who should be most compassionate. I, too, have no answers for you, just love. Are you experiencing a chronic illness or one that is considered terminal? I don't mean to be nosy and you certainly don't have to answer. Is it possible for you to change care providers at this point? Can you get others - family or close friends - to help you advocate for better care? From what I have learned watching this series, pain can be controlled better than what you are describing. Please remember YOU are the consumer - you are buying the services of the doctors and you have every right to be listened to and respected and helped. If that isn't happening, you have every right to buy a different doctor and service. I also want to say that I believe what is happening to you now does not take away the validity of your life or your life's meaning. You have undoubtedly touched many people over your years and that is part of the meaning of why you are here, you know. I think we very often don't understand the lessons we are being given, OR that we are teaching others, until much later, if at all, but I believe there are reasons for everything we experience. I also believe VERY MUCH that pain and illness are NOT punishment for some previous sin or error. That is not part of what an all-loving and all-caring God does. I believe God is grieving your pain and poor care too. He doesn't make it happen, but, I think, neither can he stop life from happening as it does. Because you wish it, I, too, pray you will not have to die in a hospital. There are alternatives although, of course, I don't know what your area offers. Reach out and ask for help. You have angels waiting to give it to you. My own spiritual belief, mostly developed after watching my mom and beloved sister die within 13 months of each other, tells me that dying is birthing and even if the dying is hard, the death is wonderful, because you will be greeted by those who love you who have gone before. I send you peace and blessings and a prayer that you will be able to find help and rediscover the spirituality that is you. {{{HUGS}}} Carol |
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BB_Wong Member Posts: 2 |
posted 09-14-2000 01:13 PM
I am a Buddhist. And, in a sound-bite manner, one can say that all Buddhist training is aimed at preparing one for the moment of death and the brief period thereafter. Buddhists not only believe in an "after-life," but actually in more like a "life-after-life-after-life...." As such, regardless of the physical circumstances in which one dies and the kind of life one has had, the state of mind and attitude one brings into that final passage is of utmost importance. For that determines what is going to happen "next." If one dies with hatred, anger, attachment and other negative states of mind, then one will return to the sufferings of cyclical existence (i.e., Samsara), probably in one of the less fortunate forms; If one dies with a mindset of compassion, loving-kindness, non-attachment and peace, one can journey on to "something better," even the State of Nirvana. And it is not at the command of some gods or Buddhas -- it is simply a manifestation of one's mental habits. If one is so inclined to be hating and angry, one will make decisions in the passage in between lives accordingly, such as returning to a state of being that is filled with anger and sufferings. Buddhist training seeks to control one's mind, so that when one dies, even in the face of great physical and mental pains, one can still be kind, compassionate, non-attached and at peace. Since habitual patterns develop over time, it really helps if one has lived a life of virtues. But some extraordinary techniques can also be employed to help one alter or disrupt the negative habitual tendencies and grow that which are positive. These techniques include certain ones that use deities as skillful means -- to help one focus during that difficult time, to encourage one to discard negative habits, to gain insights into the nature of one's mind. At one end, some of the deities are more personified, even to the point of promising personal guidance and deliverance at the time of death. At the other end, the deities are transcendental and understood to be simply a imagery manifestation of one's mental stream, thus offering some leverageable objects in working with one's mind, even though they themselves are totally illusory or "empty." Before one can put these techniques into application at the time of death, one must train in them. According to Buddhist teachings, especially those from the Tibetan tradition, there are various points in life where the experience is similar to that which one experiences at the time of death -- the progressive dissolution, the singular point of crossing over and so on. Therefore, in training, these points are taken as "rehersal" opportunities to get one ready for the "big night." Signs and confirmation that one is doing it right can be obtained at these opportunities. Through repeated rehersals, one loses the stage-fear at curtain time; By employing one of the deity-related techniques, one gain confidence that the process of death is really not something that one has to resist or struggle with. As a Buddhist, I believe that death is but a natural extension of life, though in a different form -- my stream of mental consciousness continues. It is entirely up to me how and where that stream is directed next. As such, if I were to die before I finished this sentence, I had already come to terms with life and death, leaving no fear or attachment. May all live and die properly! |
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raphael6068 Member Posts: 18 |
posted 09-14-2000 03:20 PM
quote: Dear Stamm44: I am doing research for a book on the merits of offering the suffering of the terminally ill for the "salvation" of others. Before some readers faint from shock at such an idea, the Christian believer knows that Christ's death was sufficient for the salvation of mankind(that heaven was once again attainable). But the Catholic church teaches that there is acceptable by God from us humans, the act of offering our suffering, be it physical pain or mental stress, anxiety, etc, to be added to the suffering of Christ, for the members of the Church. His acceptance of our desire to "share" in the act of salvation of the souls of others, elevates our offering to a special status. Our offering becomes consecrated, made holy because it is now joined with His which is offered to the Father. Our only motive is to share in the salvation of others who, by themselves, are not concerned with their salvation. In a mysterious way, God provides a grace to the "potentially lost" soul, giving them a chance to accept his grace and to repent of their offenses against God. Now the soul must act of its own free will in accepting God's offer of this special grace. This concept is called "redemptive suffering". My point in writing this is to say that such a belief could make a difference in the way one approaches the time of their death, realizing that there is a positive aspect of the misery, suffering, pain; that it is not "wasted", and down the "tubes" but is serving a higher purpose. Pope John Paul II wrote an Apostolic Letter titled "The Christian Meaning of Suffering, in 1984. The teaching of St. Paul is a basis for the Letter. Paul says:"..We are ...fellow heirs of Christ provided that we suffer with him in order that we will be glorified in Him(Rom. 8:17,18. Paul again says that we become sharers in Christ's suffering " for the sake of Christ" and that we share in the work of redemption" and "we are to present our bodies as " a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God."(Rom 12:1) Finally, Paul says," Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, that is, the Church"( Col.1:24) [This message has been edited by raphael6068 (edited 09-14-2000).] [This message has been edited by raphael6068 (edited 09-14-2000).] [This message has been edited by raphael6068 (edited 09-14-2000).] |
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JoyceB Member Posts: 5 |
posted 09-14-2000 05:41 PM
To jqbc-I have found faith in the trenches if quite different than the faith we intelleculize in worship and in class. Fatih in the trenches seems to revolve around "Where is God?" and "Why did God let this happen?" Lofty talk about God' providence doesn't cut it. A passage that I have used to help me is from the Gospel of John (chapter 11). It is the story of the death of Lazarus. When first confronted with Lazarus' death by Martha, he gives a beautiful speech about resurrection. But as he physically gets closer to Lazarus in the tomb, his reponse changes. When Mary questions him, he has no reponse but was deeply moved. When he outside the tomb, he weeps. The closer Jesus comes to the dead Lazarus, he responds more with his emotions. Once the tomb is opened, he must deal with the stench of death. All of this must happen before there is resurrection. I use this as an unspoken model for people dealing with death. I don't know if this is of any help-but that is a starting point with me along with the Psalms of lament (especially 22). |
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