posted 09-24-2000 09:18 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by geedel:
Those contributors who laud hospice (rightly) and offer it as a sound alternative to assisted suicide are forgetting those incurable diseases that go on and on, wreaking terrible physical, mental, emotional, and social damage long before that magic "six months until death" arrives. It seems to me a responsible person would want to avoid inflicting to much of that damage on his or her family. It also seems to me that some hospice people are just not able to admit that there are circumstances in which the greatest love, the greatest care, the greatest strength and resilience are simply helpless to avoid or mitigate the disaster. The American "can do" spirit, medical training, and sometimes religious belief all conspire to lead some people to believe that "fighting" to the end is the only honorable way. I think that sort of posturing might be appropriate in sports, but long, hopeless illness is not a sport.

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geedel, there are two situations you raise, one of which it seems to me has nothing to do with Hospice. Some of what I consider abuses in the long-term care of someone in a hospital or nursing home can be addressed via advance directives. For example, nursing homes routinely "cure" patients of pneumonia or other such diseases which can end a life with little quality left. A hospital or nursing home could withhold care or follow DNR orders without resrting to PAS.

posted 09-26-2000 12:28 AM         

Ah...now we are getting somewhere. I sincerely thank you for your statement of your faith...because it again makes my point.

Can you accept the fact (as I do) that you are free to hold to your faith and refuse PAS as an individual (or as THE Church), that you are free to argue your position to those who oppose you...but in the final analysis you accept that we all make our decisions based on our "faith" and our conception of "God's plan" and that people do the best they can under the circumstances?

My study of the Christian faith leads me to believe that Jesus was understanding of people who lived their lives "as best they could under the circumstances".....based on understanding and compassion. and while he offered teaching...he did not judge...or legislate.

Joyce, I would ask you to do me a favor....contact your local MDA association. Find someone who is suffering from end-stage ALS and is willing to share their death with you. If you can, be with them when the struggle for breath...when they cannot swallow or expel most of their secreations and start to suffocate, when they cannot speak, when they are sustained with measures that did not exist when Jesus or Paul walked the earth...... when they are in the full measure of agony that Jesus experienced on the cross of crucifiction.....

And if they are sustained against their own expressed personal wishes to terminate their life...reconciled with their own personal religious belief...tell me that you will oppose them....and their wishes....based on YOUR beliefs and convictions. Tell me that YOUR personal beliefs are superior..and to be imposed on this person who is living with his/her reality and perspectives. Tell me that in order to preserve what YOU believe to be true in your mind and the position of your church, you would impose the Catholic dogma on all....without regard to their personal beliefs, religious traditions or individual desires.

"My God, My God...why hast thou foresaken me......" to me this is a call to not ignore the suffering of others. It is a call to attention and to a new way of thinking. We must not foresake our fellow humans who cry out this request to us...in full religious conviction...that they are ready to leave this existance. As JFK said "on earth, God's work must truly be our own."

My God will greet them with understanding, compassion, and an eternal embrace ...as well as those who helped to end their unnecessary and pointless suffering.

posted 09-26-2000 01:59 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by Oregonian:
"I simply oppose any state action that legislates against my God's commandments."

Ah...now we are getting somewhere. I sincerely thank you for your statement of your faith...because it again makes my point.

Can you accept the fact (as I do) that you are free to hold to your faith and refuse PAS as an individual (or as THE Church), that you are free to argue your position to those who oppose you...but in the final analysis you accept that we all make our decisions based on our "faith" and our conception of "God's plan" and that people do the best they can under the circumstances?

My study of the Christian faith leads me to believe that Jesus was understanding of people who lived their lives "as best they could under the circumstances".....based on understanding and compassion. and while he offered teaching...he did not judge...or legislate.

Joyce, I would ask you to do me a favor....contact your local MDA association. Find someone who is suffering from end-stage ALS and is willing to share their death with you. If you can, be with them when the struggle for breath...when they cannot swallow or expel most of their secreations and start to suffocate, when they cannot speak, when they are sustained with measures that did not exist when Jesus or Paul walked the earth...... when they are in the full measure of agony that Jesus experienced on the cross of crucifiction.....

And if they are sustained against their own expressed personal wishes to terminate their life...reconciled with their own personal religious belief...tell me that you will oppose them....and their wishes....based on YOUR beliefs and convictions. Tell me that YOUR personal beliefs are superior..and to be imposed on this person who is living with his/her reality and perspectives. Tell me that in order to preserve what YOU believe to be true in your mind and the position of your church, you would impose the Catholic dogma on all....without regard to their personal beliefs, religious traditions or individual desires.

"My God, My God...why hast thou foresaken me......" to me this is a call to not ignore the suffering of others. It is a call to attention and to a new way of thinking. We must not foresake our fellow humans who cry out this request to us...in full religious conviction...that they are ready to leave this existance. As JFK said "on earth, God's work must truly be our own."

My God will greet them with understanding, compassion, and an eternal embrace ...as well as those who helped to end their unnecessary and pointless suffering.

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Dear Oregonian:
(This is from raphael6068, not Joyce.) I am convinced that your compassion and argument for PAS is completely sincere, but you say Jesus didn't judge or legislate. I wonder what His motive was when He drove the money-changers from the temple with a whip laid on them!. His Father had already "legislated" the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai. They applied in the Old and New Testaments. Most people in our country believe in the One God, since the majority, as I understand it, are of some Christian sect.This nation, having been founded on the Judeo-Christian ethic or morals, has recognized those commandments and they are the fundamental basis for our legal system. It would be the greatest affront to God, I think, if a state legalizes an action that is against a commandment of God.The Christian cannot remain silent in such a case.
No matter how compassionate one may be, the theologians say we can never say we act in clear concience when, in fact, we already acknowledge that such an action is contrary to God's law. How does one, in this case, reconcile PAS if one is Christian?
All are free to believe as they want. You are certainly entitled to rationalize the legalization of PAS, but this country should have laws that respect God's laws. The Chaplain in the Congress and other acknowledgements of God by our government still show the strong belief in a supreme being and His commandments.
Stamm44 asked for the pros and cons of legalizing PAS and he didn't limit the responses to those who are not believers or other than Christians. Those of us who respond from the Christian point of view are quickly judged to be lacking in compassion or a sense of mercy or love for our fellow family members or the dying in general. After man has done all he can with control of pain, hydration, and nourishment, etc, and the time has come to pull the plugs on the machines and pull the tubes, etc. it seems God has made a decision for that dying person as to when the last breath will be taken. The Christian argues that at that time NO ONE has the right to deliberately cause death by some compassion-guided injection.The Christian may not remain silent concerning proposed legislation that would legalize PAS.
You write eloquently of Jesus on the Cross. The suffering was not mitigated for Him. His Father permited Him to suffer to the fullest for our sake. Jesus Himself did not look favorably on the traveler who deliberately abandoned the sick or injured man on the roadway in the parable of the Good Samaritan.
On the Cross, His words,"Father,Father, why have you forsaken Me?", did not seek the restoration of His life or an alleviation of His pain. Those words were spoken out of His anguish in seeing the hatefilled rejection of Him and His teaching; the total insensitivity to His demonstrated love in His acts of healing and raising of the dead; that His mission did not appear to bear fruit; ,all at the very moment He was giving His life up for those very same people and the world. He was not asking for mercy since He knew His mission as the savior meant His death on the Cross.
I believe that His words "Take up thy Cross and follow Me" apply in our everday life of hurts, rejection, persecution, pain, suffering,failure, etc.,a but I think they apply especially in accepting the death He wills for us and more especially in the determination of when the last breath will be taken. Most Christians beieve that in our dying we can expiate or atone for our past transgressions and that death is a truly sacred time of preparation for the next life. These considerations take precedance over an alleged act of mercy with a syringe filled with death.

posted 09-26-2000 11:07 PM         

Much of the bible is allegory, highly consistent with the Jewish tradition of "midrash." The fundamental message of Jesus was one of individual spirituality…..back to the still small voice within……and a rejection of orthodoxy…hence his difficulties and debates with the Pharisees, money-changers and "the Law" and spirit of the time in gerneral. If Jesus were here today I think he would see the merits of both of our arguments with respect to PAS and in the end would say "follow your heart." Good advice…both then and now.

"This nation, having been founded on the Judeo-Christian ethic or morals, has recognized those commandments and they are the fundamental basis for our legal system. It would be the greatest affront to God, I think, if a state legalizes an action thatis against a commandment of God.The Christian cannot remain silent in such a case."

Actually the founding fathers of this country were Deists. They had no allegiance to the Judeo-Christian perspective. As for your contention that because the majority of citizens of the United States are Christian and we are thus compelled to incorporate its dogma….I would remind you that two of the cornerstone ideas in the constitution are (1) the separation of church and state and (2) safeguards against "the tyranny of the majority." This has prevented our country from falling into a theocracy.....see Iran....

"How does one, in this case, reconcile PAS if one is Christian? All are free to believe as they want. You are certainly entitled to rationalize the legalization of PAS, but this country should have laws that respect God's laws."

I repeat… yet again…I do not expect you, as a Christian to reconcile PAS to your belief system. You may freely reject it as a personal option. I simply ask you to not impose your moral agenda on me or manipulate the political system into aligning itself with Christian orthodoxy with a disregard of the beliefs of others. Preach and try to convert me, pray for me….just don't impose your orthodoxy on me via legislation.

"Most Christians beieve that in our dying we can expiate or atone for our past
transgressions and that death is a truly sacred time of preparation for the next life. These considerations take precedance over an alleged act of mercy with a syringe filled with death."

Each moment of my life is a preparation for my death and is sacred. I am in church all day long! If people need to atone on their deathbed…..good…..I hope the have the chance to do so (what do christians do who have sudden death?).

I am reminded of Henry David Thoreau, who on his deathbed was asked…"Don't you want to reconcile with your God?" He replied: " No, I have never quarreled with him."

posted 09-27-2000 11:03 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by Oregonian:
"I am convinced that your compassion and argument for PAS is completely sincere, but yousay Jesus didn't judge or legislate. I wonder what His motive was when He drove the money-changers from the temple with a whip laid on them!."

Much of the bible is allegory, highly consistent with the Jewish tradition of "midrash." The fundamental message of Jesus was one of individual spirituality…..back to the still small voice within……and a rejection of orthodoxy…hence his difficulties and debates with the Pharisees, money-changers and "the Law" and spirit of the time in gerneral. If Jesus were here today I think he would see the merits of both of our arguments with respect to PAS and in the end would say "follow your heart." Good advice…both then and now.

"This nation, having been founded on the Judeo-Christian ethic or morals, has recognized those commandments and they are the fundamental basis for our legal system. It would be the greatest affront to God, I think, if a state legalizes an action thatis against a commandment of God.The Christian cannot remain silent in such a case."

Actually the founding fathers of this country were Deists. They had no allegiance to the Judeo-Christian perspective. As for your contention that because the majority of citizens of the United States are Christian and we are thus compelled to incorporate its dogma….I would remind you that two of the cornerstone ideas in the constitution are (1) the separation of church and state and (2) safeguards against "the tyranny of the majority." This has prevented our country from falling into a theocracy.....see Iran....

"How does one, in this case, reconcile PAS if one is Christian? All are free to believe as they want. You are certainly entitled to rationalize the legalization of PAS, but this country should have laws that respect God's laws."

I repeat… yet again…I do not expect you, as a Christian to reconcile PAS to your belief system. You may freely reject it as a personal option. I simply ask you to not impose your moral agenda on me or manipulate the political system into aligning itself with Christian orthodoxy with a disregard of the beliefs of others. Preach and try to convert me, pray for me….just don't impose your orthodoxy on me via legislation.

"Most Christians beieve that in our dying we can expiate or atone for our past
transgressions and that death is a truly sacred time of preparation for the next life. These considerations take precedance over an alleged act of mercy with a syringe filled with death."

Each moment of my life is a preparation for my death and is sacred. I am in church all day long! If people need to atone on their deathbed…..good…..I hope the have the chance to do so (what do christians do who have sudden death?).

I am reminded of Henry David Thoreau, who on his deathbed was asked…"Don't you want to reconcile with your God?" He replied: " No, I have never quarreled with him."

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To Oregonian:

posted 09-27-2000 11:12 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by raphael6068:
To Oregonian:

I believe Jesus would see the sincerity of each argument but I feel certain He would not compromise the Law of His Father. Seeing this issue through the eyes of a Christian will forever make me focus on what the Supreme Law says about deliberate killing of a human being in cases under discussion(suffering,pain,etc.)Solomon, in all his amazing and gifted wisdom would not make a decision, I feel certain,without reference to the Commandments. Jesus,also being God(Second Person of the Trinity, would not violate His own Commandment,acting as the Savior, nor would He violate the Commandment as a Son, obedient to His Heavenly father. This is an explanation from the viewpoint of the Christian. We do not expect all to convert to Catholicism or Lutheranism, etc,We, in concience MUST speak out against PAS, even at the risk of alienating all who are in favor of PAS.They crucified Christ for His moving against the flow. It is nothing new for the Christian to be ostracized or persecuted.Our nation has had dying and suffering with it since its beginning. Today, the modern view seems to have its roots in atheism. If one does not believe in God, one would not feel accountable for breaking His law. You and I can argue and discuss forever, but as along as we stand on different sides of the "street" concerning an unequivocal belief in God and His Commandments or seeing NO connection between the subject of PAS and religion, we will go nowhere with our discussion. No one desires to stop PAS from being made legal so as to claim a partisan victory. Those who oppose it do not want the legalization of the taking of a temporal life from an immortal soul by some man-made decision in a court of law. The taking of a life belongs in the realm of the Creator of that life.
I do respect you and your sincerity. You seem like a person I would like to know more about and correspond with, and maybe even learn some things from, but this difficulty of ours in coming to some common ground or understanding can never happen because the very premises from which each of us argues are light-years apart. We Christians have compassion for the dying and the critically ill. But we feel that even in the case of seeing such suffering as described by many of the writers in this forum, man is bound to obey God's commandment against killing. You see PAS as an act of mercy and compassion. The Christian sees PAS as an act of mercy and compassion that violates a law of God and is a case of the end not justifying the means.We see a new symbol of the crucifixion : Jesus hangs on the Cross. There are no nails in His hands and feet. Three large hypodermic syringes pin his hands and feet to this cross. A PAIR OF FORCEPS HAS PIERCED his side. He suffers again-seeing man's arbitrariness in rationalizing against His Commandments, not only in PAS, but in wrongly justifying the slaughter of 33 million unborn infants in the place where they should feel safest and most secure, the womb of their mothers. Man, cold-heartedly says, "We are not ready to have a child. The child will be crippled and we cannot care for it; this one came as a surprise. The child will interrupt my plans." I don't intend to introduce a new topic into the discussion on PAS, but the taking of life and the arbitrary way we Americans deal with it for the weakest and most innocent, is an abomination. There is no way that this nation can escape the consequences of such brutality against the infants, and the lack of respect for the dignity of a human soul which will live forever, but whose life was taken by a physician with a syringe in his hands.This concludes my commentary on PAS. I wish you well and have looked forward to our verbal jousting.Peace be with you, friend.

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posted 09-28-2000 12:59 AM         

quote:

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Originally posted by raphael6068:

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Raphael,

I was waiting for someone to bring up abortion. A very different issue. You might be surprised to learn that I oppose abortion, particularly as a method of birth control...but again I also oppose legislating against it. I have been very succesful in changing attitudes of my friends regarding this matter through discussion and dialog. I also advocate birth control as one of the best anti-abortion measures (sorry, I fear we part company again, as i realize the Pope believes that a condom is an instrument of the devil).

I must draw a distinction however between abortion and PAS. In the State of Oregon, PAS is an option selected BY AN INDIVIDUAL, judged to be terminal and of sound mind; an action that only effects the physical life of THE INDIVIDUAL making the choice. It is not the ending of someone else's life, but rather only concerns MY OWN LIFE. I make the decision, I carry out the act....I bear the responsibility for my actions....it is MY business...and not yours or your church. I realize you disagree. I'm sorry, and I appreciate your concern and acknowledge the constraints of your faith, but my religious tradition allows an individual to develop their own relationship with the infinite....it is not about following laws written by people who never saw a respirator, an IV, a nasogastric tube or an ICU.

On another point:

I would like to bid all a fond farewell. This is my last post, I am leaving the forum and the discussion. I must say how much I have sincerely enjoyed the dialog and I do respect all who have posted here. It has become obvious to me however that at a certain point we reach a stage where rational thought bumps up solidly against religious faith and dogma...and neither is prepared to give way. When I discover myself making the same arguments/points repeatedly and when I find myself reading the same Christian dogma and biblical quotes in response....it is clearly time to move the discussion on. We are obviously stuck in the same circular arguments that have been the hallmark of western thought for 2000 years. I do not think it proper to turn this forum into a debate about religion.

Thanks again, to all of you, to Bill Moyers and his staff (greatest journalist of our day) and to PBS and to the long-suffering moderator of the forum.

I wish all of you a joyous life and a peaceful death.

posted 09-28-2000 05:10 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by Oregonian:
Raphael,

I wish all of you a joyous life and a peaceful death.

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posted 09-28-2000 07:03 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by Stamm44:
May the same wishes come true for you.

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posted 12-04-2006 11:20 PM         

It demeans the value of human life. In this country, human life means something. For each death, we have 1-2 days of ceremonies, elaborate burials, and months of mourning. When 3,000 people died in the 9/11 attacks, donations poured in from all over the country. We donated money, blood, time, prayers, and tears. And we will probably always mourn the annual anniversary of the attacks. In other countries around the world, life isn't so sacred. Wars are fought constantly for disputed territories and old grudges. People celebrate having their sons and daughters blow themselves up and kill scores of civilians. The Iraqis, Communists, Nazis, and others have shown us that human life is to some, nothing more than a science experiment or political resource. The thing that elevates Western society above others, generally speaking, is the value we put on each and every life. To stomp out a life because it's not convenient or it's expensive demeans that value. Human life is much more that just a cluster of biological cells.

It could open the floodgates to non-critical patient suicides and other abuses. Any loosening of the assisted-suicide laws could eventually lead to abuses of the privilege. For example, patients who want to die for psychological or emotional reasons could convince doctors to help them end their lives. Attitudes would loosen to the point that certain states may decide that any person can commit suicide at any time. We can't let our values shatter this way.

Many religions prohibit suicide and the intentional killing of others. The most basic commandment is "Thou shall not kill". Virtually all religions have a law against killing. We need to protect the morality of not only the patients but the doctors that must extinguish their lives.

Doctors and families may be prompted to give up on recovery much too early. If a patient is told that he has, for example, six months left to live with progressively worse pain, he may decide to end things before things start to get worse. This wipes out valuable time that can be spent with family and friends; it also denies the slim chance of a recovery or the possibility of discovering a doctor error.

Insurance companies may put undue pressure on doctors to avoid heroic measures or recommend the assisted-suicide procedure. Health insurance providers are under tremendous pressure to keep premiums down. To do this, they must cut costs at every turn and make tough decisions. Many doctors are already prevented from give patients certain tests or performing certain operations despite what the doctor believes is truly necessary. Legalizing assisted suicide would likely invite another set of procedures as to when life-sustaining measures should be undertaken. We shouldn't give the insurance companies any more power over human life.

Miracle cures or recoveries can occur. You can never underestimate the power of the human spirit. A cheerful, never-give-up attitude can often overcome the longest of odds and the worst of illnesses. You also have to consider the constant medical and pharmaceutical advances that just might lead to a miracle recovery. We should never get to a point where we spend more time looking for a way out of life than for a way to sustain life.

posted 12-14-2006 09:37 AM         

1. A patient with a terminal illness who is in a mentally stable state, clearly expresses his/her will to die. Should he/she be able to die through…
a) Active Assisted Suicide
b) Passive Assisted Suicide
c) Both should be allowed
d) Neither should be allowed

2. A patient with a terminal illness in a vegetative state/coma, and earlier in life made statements to his/her family members saying that if he/she was ever in this situation, he would prefer to die. Should this person be killed through…
a) Active Assisted Suicide
b) Passive Assisted Suicide
c) Both should be allowed
d) Neither should be allowed

3. A patient with a terminal illness is in a vegetative state/coma and cannot express whether or not he/she wants to die. Should he/she be killed through…
a) Active Assisted Suicide
b) Passive Assisted Suicide
c) Both should be allowed
d) Neither should be allowed

4. A patient with terminal illness clearly requests to be kept alive. Should he/she be killed through…
a) Active Assisted Suicide
b) Passive Assisted Suicide
c) Both should be allowed
d) Neither should be allowed